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Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

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Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#31

Post by throwup238 »

cm2187 wrote: post #13

> emerging research showing that up to 40 per cent of the weight lost by people using weight-loss drugs is actually muscle That's the sort of headlines that smells like bullshit to me. My understand of those drugs is that they don't actually make you lose weight, they just cut your appetite so you can follow a diet to lose weight without hunger hammering at the door. So to start with, if that's the case, all they are…

The next line of the article after that 40% quote:

> Carla Prado, a nutrition researcher in the Faculty of Agricultural, Life & Environmental Sciences and lead author on the commentary, explains this rate of muscle decline is significantly higher than what is typically observed with calorie-reduced diets or normal aging and could lead to a host of long-term health issues — including decreased immunity, increased risk of infections and poor wound healing.

The rather obvious problem is that these GLP1 agonists don't improve your diet. If you continue to eat a protein and nutrient deficient diet (which is probably a majority of Americans) with caloric restriction on top of that, that leads to excessive muscle loss that you wouldn't see in a weight loss diet. This normally doesn't happen without GLP1 agonists, because these diets are too difficult to stick to for most people. Those who stick to them usually turn to nutritious high satiety whole foods that help combat the negative effects of caloric restriction.

Losing weight without losing muscle mass is very hard. It requires extreme diets like a protein sparring modified fast where 80%+ of your calories are from lean protein while running a 50% caloric deficit. If this research is correct, then using GLP1 agonists shortcuts the feedback loops that make the diets hard to stick to, but they shift the tradeoffs from weight to overall nutrition.

"When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure" and all that.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#32

Post by adrian_b »

cm2187 wrote: post #13

> emerging research showing that up to 40 per cent of the weight lost by people using weight-loss drugs is actually muscle That's the sort of headlines that smells like bullshit to me. My understand of those drugs is that they don't actually make you lose weight, they just cut your appetite so you can follow a diet to lose weight without hunger hammering at the door. So to start with, if that's the case, all they are…

See the actual research article:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2452302X2...

This study on mice was suggested by a previous publication:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8...

where it had been noticed that in humans "the muscle loss with these medications (as indicated by decreases in fat-free mass [FFM]) ranges from 25% to 39% of the total weight lost over 36–72 weeks", in comparison with muscle loss of only 10% to 30% when the weight is lost just by eating less, without semaglutide.

So with semaglutide, a larger fraction of the weight loss affects muscles than when the same weight is lost by traditional means.

While for other muscles the loss of mass may not be so important, the fact that at least in mice the loss also affects the heart is worrisome and it certainly warrants further studies.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#33

Post by throwup238 »

com2kid wrote: post #10
sfink wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a linked article saying that 40% of the weight loss is muscle.

Outside of cardiac muscle, which is a bit worrisome, 40% of weight loss being from muscles is incredibly typical for any diet that sheds pounds. There are very complex dietary regimes that can be followed to minimize this, but most studies have shown that they don't save any time compared to losing weight and then working to get the muscle back afterwards. > Dyck’s study comes on the heels of a commentary published i…

Literally the next line after the 40% quote:

> Carla Prado, a nutrition researcher in the Faculty of Agricultural, Life & Environmental Sciences and lead author on the commentary, explains this rate of muscle decline is significantly higher than what is typically observed with calorie-reduced diets or normal aging and could lead to a host of long-term health issues — including decreased immunity, increased risk of infections and poor wound healing.

Do you have a source that 40% muscle loss is typical for a caloric restriction diet without GLP1 agonists?

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#34

Post by philipbjorge »

firecall wrote: post #27
cm2187 wrote: post #13

> emerging research showing that up to 40 per cent of the weight lost by people using weight-loss drugs is actually muscle That's the sort of headlines that smells like bullshit to me. My understand of those drugs is that they don't actually make you lose weight, they just cut your appetite so you can follow a diet to lose weight without hunger hammering at the door. So to start with, if that's the case, all they are…

Interestingly, when I was part of a weight loss diet study at my local university I actually gained muscle whilst losing weight. I had multiple full body dexascans during the programme. I didn’t change my exercise routine at all. I wasn’t hitting the gym or doing weights, just my usual basic cardio. And I gained muscle and lost ~10kilos in weight. It wasn’t much muscle, but the amount of muscle was higher than before…

The latest research I’ve pulled suggests that DEXA scans are fairly inaccurate and aren’t a reliable way to measure body composition even for the same person across time.

MRI is the gold standard, everything else is pretty loosely goosey.

Sorry, no references but this comes up pretty often in the science based lifting communities on Reddit and YouTube if you want to learn more.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#35

Post by hnthrowaway0328 »

cm2187 wrote: post #30
hnthrowaway0328 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious, does your appetite come back whence you cut off the meds? The only reason I want to lose weight is to eat more freely, won't be useful if I lose my appetite too.

You don't lose taste, you lose your appetite, which means you can resist the temptation to eat easily, and you feel full very quickly. That doesn't prevent you from eating what you like, but it does help you to not eat too much of it, which I hope is not what you mean by "more freely". The appetite comes back when you cut the meds, but it's an appetite based on your new weight. But if you then go on a some suggar ram…

Thanks, that's good enough. I have been going to weight loss for over 6 months but I'm stuck between 79 and 80kg. It's a bit difficult to add more weight lifting because I tended to hurt myself, so eat less is better.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#36

Post by throwaway14356 »

denkmoon wrote: post #25
cm2187 wrote: post #13

> emerging research showing that up to 40 per cent of the weight lost by people using weight-loss drugs is actually muscle That's the sort of headlines that smells like bullshit to me. My understand of those drugs is that they don't actually make you lose weight, they just cut your appetite so you can follow a diet to lose weight without hunger hammering at the door. So to start with, if that's the case, all they are…

god... 133kg down to 88kg, that's like a dream to me. Years of trying to get under 100 by 'traditional' calorie restriction diet & exercise.

some fun study sort of concluded that the ratio carbs vs fat and protine is the entire mechanic. fat people who eat almost nothing eat only carbs thin people who can eat huge amounts every day eat a lot of fat and protein. Both eat other things just not as much.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#38

Post by chunky1994 »

throwup238 wrote: post #31
cm2187 wrote: post #13

> emerging research showing that up to 40 per cent of the weight lost by people using weight-loss drugs is actually muscle That's the sort of headlines that smells like bullshit to me. My understand of those drugs is that they don't actually make you lose weight, they just cut your appetite so you can follow a diet to lose weight without hunger hammering at the door. So to start with, if that's the case, all they are…

The next line of the article after that 40% quote: > Carla Prado, a nutrition researcher in the Faculty of Agricultural, Life & Environmental Sciences and lead author on the commentary, explains this rate of muscle decline is significantly higher than what is typically observed with calorie-reduced diets or normal aging and could lead to a host of long-term health issues — including decreased immunity, increased risk…

I'd like to see the diets in the study that are specified as the "calorie-reduced diets". (Can't seem to find the paper). If it's the same as the Standard American Diet, this muscle loss is quite explainable. I think the mitigation is relatively easy though, if you want to shift the p-ratio, recommending a daily high protein shake would do a lot to stave off muscle loss (and even more if resistance training is applied of course). The exercise addition is probably the hardest to adhere to.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#39

Post by loeg »

So like, it's interesting that this happens in mice, but we did not see increased heart disease in human RCTs of these drugs.

Maybe the mouse dose is just absurdly high? "Mice were then administered semaglutide 120 μg/kg/d for 21 days." That could be vaguely reasonable -- human doses range from, idk, ~36 to ~200 μg/kg/d (2.5mg/week to 15mg/week at ~100kg).

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