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Magic Circle tries to track down first female member – who posed as a man

theguardian.com

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Re: Magic Circle tries to track down first female member – who posed as a man

#31

Post by JKCalhoun »

MrMcCall wrote: post #19

"I would never join a club that would have me as a member." --Groucho Marx The pity is that most people are naive enough to believe that most other people are decent human beings. It took me nearly five decades to understand that I shouldn't project my basic sense of decency on others, which is a grave mistake as most people are just selfish, exclusionary morons who think they're on the 'expert' side of the Dunning-K…

Are you suggesting we should be compassionate for the "selfish, exclusionary morons"?

Not quite following your gist.

I disagree with you to some degree. Maybe I'm a slow learner (I've had 6 decades to learn my lesson) but I still find that most people do in fact want to be and do good. I find this often when I travel on the road, make myself a stranger in strange parts.

To be sure, I have been called Pollyanna, but I do wonder sometimes if in fact it isn't cynicism that is the problem with the world.

Re: Magic Circle tries to track down first female member – who posed as a man

#32

Post by blueflow »

astura wrote: post #29
crazygringo wrote: post #24

Wait -- the Magic Circle didn't admit female members until 1991 ?! I thought the 1960's and 70's were when all the all-male universities and other organizations opened up to women. And that mostly groups left after that were those that had a functional reason for being all-male, i.e. male tenor-bass choirs. Or certain male "fraternal" organizations. But magic obviously doesn't have any functional reason for being mal…

Doesn't surprise me even a bit. I was born in the early 1980s. My entire childhood was filled with people[1] explicitly telling me I can't do this-or-that because I was a girl. Other things I wasn't explicitly told I couldn't do, but I just thought weren't for me because they were zero women doing them. I badly internalized some of it. I think I've gotten over it now though. My first job was explicitly sex segregated…

I long for the day when judging people by their gender will be as shunned as judging them by their nationality, heritage or skin color.

Its 2024 and that day has not come yet.

Re: Magic Circle tries to track down first female member – who posed as a man

#33

Post by morkalork »

crazygringo wrote: post #24

Wait -- the Magic Circle didn't admit female members until 1991 ?! I thought the 1960's and 70's were when all the all-male universities and other organizations opened up to women. And that mostly groups left after that were those that had a functional reason for being all-male, i.e. male tenor-bass choirs. Or certain male "fraternal" organizations. But magic obviously doesn't have any functional reason for being mal…

This reminds me of a rumor I heard long ago about how there was an awkward impasse when Ginni Rommetty became CEO of IBM. Apparently one of the perks of the job was an annual membership to some golf club but it was men-only, literally an old boys club. I forget what the conclusion was though.

Re: Magic Circle tries to track down first female member – who posed as a man

#34

Post by bryanlarsen »

MrMcCall wrote: post #19

"I would never join a club that would have me as a member." --Groucho Marx The pity is that most people are naive enough to believe that most other people are decent human beings. It took me nearly five decades to understand that I shouldn't project my basic sense of decency on others, which is a grave mistake as most people are just selfish, exclusionary morons who think they're on the 'expert' side of the Dunning-K…

Most people are both decent human beings and moderately selfish. It's just the nature of being human. Humans have flaws.

But some people definitely are not decent human beings. Just like if you have a couple apples in the barrel that are spoiled you have to treat the whole barrel as spoiled, we have enough evil human beings to spoil the whole barrelful.

Re: Magic Circle tries to track down first female member – who posed as a man

#35

Post by Timwi »

astura wrote: post #29
crazygringo wrote: post #24

Wait -- the Magic Circle didn't admit female members until 1991 ?! I thought the 1960's and 70's were when all the all-male universities and other organizations opened up to women. And that mostly groups left after that were those that had a functional reason for being all-male, i.e. male tenor-bass choirs. Or certain male "fraternal" organizations. But magic obviously doesn't have any functional reason for being mal…

Doesn't surprise me even a bit. I was born in the early 1980s. My entire childhood was filled with people[1] explicitly telling me I can't do this-or-that because I was a girl. Other things I wasn't explicitly told I couldn't do, but I just thought weren't for me because they were zero women doing them. I badly internalized some of it. I think I've gotten over it now though. My first job was explicitly sex segregated…

I think it bears mentioning that women were probably not excluded from cleaning cookware because it was believed they couldn't do it. They were segregated to maintain a male-dominated society where men call the shots and women are just generally held back.

All the talk about “women are too emotional” or things like that have always been after-the-fact excuses.

Re: Magic Circle tries to track down first female member – who posed as a man

#36

Post by Ylpertnodi »

blueflow wrote: post #32
astura wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't surprise me even a bit. I was born in the early 1980s. My entire childhood was filled with people[1] explicitly telling me I can't do this-or-that because I was a girl. Other things I wasn't explicitly told I couldn't do, but I just thought weren't for me because they were zero women doing them. I badly internalized some of it. I think I've gotten over it now though. My first job was explicitly sex segregated…

I long for the day when judging people by their gender will be as shunned as judging them by their nationality, heritage or skin color. Its 2024 and that day has not come yet.

Hair length, too?

Re: Magic Circle tries to track down first female member – who posed as a man

#37

Post by MrMcCall »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #31
MrMcCall wrote: post #19

"I would never join a club that would have me as a member." --Groucho Marx The pity is that most people are naive enough to believe that most other people are decent human beings. It took me nearly five decades to understand that I shouldn't project my basic sense of decency on others, which is a grave mistake as most people are just selfish, exclusionary morons who think they're on the 'expert' side of the Dunning-K…

Are you suggesting we should be compassionate for the "selfish, exclusionary morons"? Not quite following your gist. I disagree with you to some degree. Maybe I'm a slow learner (I've had 6 decades to learn my lesson) but I still find that most people do in fact want to be and do good. I find this often when I travel on the road, make myself a stranger in strange parts. To be sure, I have been called Pollyanna, but I…

Being compassionate to selfish folks means demonstrating and teaching them the fundamental nature and utility of universal compassion. Each person has the free will to be as selfish or selfless as they wish. Maybe they've never been educated that it is selfishness that is dangerously heating our Earth, has caused all strife ever, fosters ignorance, and allows the poor and marginalized to be callously left to rot.

While we must work to establish a world society of compassionate service to one and all, we must also acknowledge the paradox of tolerance, and take that into consideration for how we manifest our compassion.

That a significant percent of America has just rejected truth and compassion in favor of lies, meanness, and bigotry is evidence enough of the stark truth, my friend.

Re: Magic Circle tries to track down first female member – who posed as a man

#38

Post by blueflow »

Ylpertnodi wrote: post #36
blueflow wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I long for the day when judging people by their gender will be as shunned as judging them by their nationality, heritage or skin color. Its 2024 and that day has not come yet.

Hair length, too?

Superficial things in general. Including hair length.

For men, long hair is quite normalized (think viking look, metalheads), but women with short hair could need some action.

Re: Magic Circle tries to track down first female member – who posed as a man

#39

Post by MrMcCall »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #34
MrMcCall wrote: post #19

"I would never join a club that would have me as a member." --Groucho Marx The pity is that most people are naive enough to believe that most other people are decent human beings. It took me nearly five decades to understand that I shouldn't project my basic sense of decency on others, which is a grave mistake as most people are just selfish, exclusionary morons who think they're on the 'expert' side of the Dunning-K…

Most people are both decent human beings and moderately selfish. It's just the nature of being human. Humans have flaws. But some people definitely are not decent human beings. Just like if you have a couple apples in the barrel that are spoiled you have to treat the whole barrel as spoiled, we have enough evil human beings to spoil the whole barrelful.

If most people were decent human beings and only moderately selfish, the world's governments and UN would work much, much differently than they do now. As well, America's recent election would have gone much differently. Ignorance is selfish, lying is selfish, letting the greedy become wealthier is selfish, and any and all oppression is selfish.

Global heating is caused by selfishness born of ignorance, and that ignorance is selfish for our currently untenable status quo, especially here in America.

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