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How tiny wasps cope with being smaller than amoebas

blogs.discovermagazine.com

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Re: How tiny wasps cope with being smaller than amoebas

#31
Wow: with only 7,400 neurons (compared to 340,000 for the common housefly and 850,000 for honeybees), this wasp can somehow fly, search for food, find the right places to lay its eggs, etc.

That ridiculously tiny neural network is one freakingly efficient computing device!

Re: How tiny wasps cope with being smaller than amoebas

#32
post #10

What are the major technical barriers before we can identify the input and output channels to this insect's brain and start iterating through all possible input values, recording the corresponding output values? And once we can do that, could we use that data to fly a virtual insect around a virtual world?

I was interested in this too. Shallow googling found, that there are problems with emulating even more simple organisms: http://lesswrong.com/lw/88g/whole_brain_emulation_looking_at...

I wonder why the Blue Brain guys don't work on c. elegans? They claim they can simulate full neocortical columns, a c. elegans should be no problem and they could compare the behavior.

Re: How tiny wasps cope with being smaller than amoebas

#33
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but we can fire up a room full of servers instead.

Short and consistent feedback latency is crucial for movement coordination. Think adapting to wind conditions and landing/liftoff in rough conditions.

At small enough scales -- and this is one of them -- air is not just a fluid, it is a viscous fluid. Movement will be more like swimming than flying; there won't be any landing or liftoff, so much as grabbing on and pushing off.

Re: How tiny wasps cope with being smaller than amoebas

#34
post #10

What are the major technical barriers before we can identify the input and output channels to this insect's brain and start iterating through all possible input values, recording the corresponding output values? And once we can do that, could we use that data to fly a virtual insect around a virtual world?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/science/21brain.html?pagew...

This article suggests that it's computationally infeasible even for an organism with only 302 neurons, all of which have already been completely mapped.

Re: How tiny wasps cope with being smaller than amoebas

#35
post #10

What are the major technical barriers before we can identify the input and output channels to this insect's brain and start iterating through all possible input values, recording the corresponding output values? And once we can do that, could we use that data to fly a virtual insect around a virtual world?

You might find this project at Caltech interesting. They are trying to model a worm:

http://caltech.wormbase.org/virtualworm/

I imagine one can eventully extend it from simply representing anatomy to "activating it".

Re: How tiny wasps cope with being smaller than amoebas

#36
I find the implied range of cell sizes to be amazing. (Informally, it's tempting to view all microscopic biological entities as being similarly small; they're not.)

Here's a cool visual of relative cell sizes and scale:

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/begin/cells/scale/

Re: How tiny wasps cope with being smaller than amoebas

#37

I find the implied range of cell sizes to be amazing. (Informally, it's tempting to view all microscopic biological entities as being similarly small; they're not.) Here's a cool visual of relative cell sizes and scale: http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/begin/cells/scale/

The amoeba is as big as a grain of salt? It must be visible with the naked eye, then, no? I had no idea it was that big...

Re: How tiny wasps cope with being smaller than amoebas

#38
post #31

Wow: with only 7,400 neurons (compared to 340,000 for the common housefly and 850,000 for honeybees), this wasp can somehow fly, search for food, find the right places to lay its eggs, etc. That ridiculously tiny neural network is one freakingly efficient computing device!

7,400 seems very capable of being simulated. In fact, that's a small enough number that I'll bet you could map those connections out by hand with some type of microscope.

To someone more knowledgeable in this subset of biology, is this possible?

Re: How tiny wasps cope with being smaller than amoebas

#39
post #31

Wow: with only 7,400 neurons (compared to 340,000 for the common housefly and 850,000 for honeybees), this wasp can somehow fly, search for food, find the right places to lay its eggs, etc. That ridiculously tiny neural network is one freakingly efficient computing device!

7,400 seems very capable of being simulated. In fact, that's a small enough number that I'll bet you could map those connections out by hand with some type of microscope. To someone more knowledgeable in this subset of biology, is this possible?

See this link posted by "zb": http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/science/21brain.html?pagew...

Re: How tiny wasps cope with being smaller than amoebas

#40
post #31

Wow: with only 7,400 neurons (compared to 340,000 for the common housefly and 850,000 for honeybees), this wasp can somehow fly, search for food, find the right places to lay its eggs, etc. That ridiculously tiny neural network is one freakingly efficient computing device!

The problem is that real neurons are way more complex than those simple functions AI guys build their networks of.
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