Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

gamingonlinux.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 660 posts

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#31

Post by jsheard »

butterfly42069 wrote: post #28

The biggest giveaway the kernel level anti cheat is stupid is that Easy Anti-Cheat works on Linux without kernel level access.

It only works on Linux if the developer allows it, because it's not nearly as effective on Linux. Rust (the game not the language) uses EAC but doesn't run on Linux by choice for example. Neither does Fortnite. Apex Legends uses EAC and does run on Linux, and now nearly every public cheat for that game targets the Linux version because it's such a soft target.

I don't really like the status quo of installing random kernel-mode crap either, but nobody has a compelling answer for how to not make cheating absolutely trivial without it. Usermode anticheat barely does anything, serverside anticheat can only do so much, and the only other alternative is switching to console platforms which prevent cheating by giving the user zero freedom.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#32

Post by plopz »

arp242 wrote: post #16
lousken wrote: post #4

Good, the sooner devs realize they need to do server side properly, the better

It's impossible to prevent cheating from the server-side only. Something like an aimbot can operate purely on information you need to have as a client (to render the other players on the screen), and still be a huge advantage because it can respond faster than any human can.

I think server side statistical analysis can go a long way to detect stuff like that. Obviously its always a cat and mouse game between devs and cheaters, and there are always workarounds, but theres a lot more the devs could be doing without relying on invasive client side detection.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#33

Post by throwaway48476 »

hypeatei wrote: post #26
throwaway48476 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about prevention, but detection.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make but in this context there is no difference. If you know someone is cheating, you prevent further cheating by banning them. Now I'll ask: how do you detect someone wall hacking automatically? No human review and no false flags. Go!

A prevention model would be like the xbox where technical measures are used to prevent user code. A detection model is server side and detects anomalies for bans.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#34

Post by Brian_K_White »

hypeatei wrote: post #18
lousken wrote: post #4

Good, the sooner devs realize they need to do server side properly, the better

What? The current PC gaming model where things run on a machine controlled by the user is fundamentally against solving the issue of cheats. You can't prevent everything server-side.

Not our problem.

The problem of cheating in games does not weigh more than the users ultimate ownership of and control over their own property.

No one has a right to a business model.

They can do plenty enough server-side. It's not a blocking problem at all, it's just easier to take over all control of the users pc for your own convenience.

Everything, including all valid goals, is easier if you could just have the power to control whatever you want instead of having to cooperate and respect others and respect boundaries. It's no more valid than saying "Everything would be so much better if everyone would just do what I say.". Using that argument is invalid even if supposedly applied in service to some otherwise valid goal.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#35

Post by plopz »

teen wrote: post #13
lousken wrote: post #4

Good, the sooner devs realize they need to do server side properly, the better

I think most of these companies do do the server side properly. There are plenty of hacks that just make a client play ungodly well. Like macros, aimbots, cooldown tracking, auto-hex

I'm not sure about that first part, some of the biggest games like gtav is an embarrassment in the concept of never trust the client.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#37

Post by bravetraveler »

jsheard wrote: post #22
kulahan wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't wait to find out what China hid in Riot's Vanguard rootkit for all their games. It's 100% a conspiracy theory, but nobody can convince me it's perfectly clean, or if it is, that there isn't an easy way to add some power to it quietly.

If I wanted to deploy a trojan horse then the last place I would try to hide it is in an anti-cheat driver that will without any doubt be exhaustively analysed by people attempting to bypass it.

Gamers are great targets. They'll disable security for higher polling rates. Not discerning, gladly walk to the slaughterhouse.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#38

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

doublerabbit wrote: post #3
throwaway48476 wrote: post #2

After the crowdstrike disaster 3rd party kernel drivers need to be shunned for non critical applications. Games publishers have been bad actors in this space for a long time now. The genshin impact anticheat was used in a malware campaign. Rockstar was very misleading trying to imply their kernel driver not being compatible with the steam deck was valves fault.

What decides critical or non-critical. One could argue that a game isn't critical but one could say it's critical to stop hackers. If you were to take the stance that gaming isn't critical than with that logic you're then claiming multiplayer hacking is a feature of the game. Doesn't do well for the community or the company. But nor do the rootkits do good for the consumer.

> one could say it's critical to stop hackers.

It's never critical to stop hackers in a videogame IMO. We need to stop being so damn serious about gaming.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#39

Post by jolmg »

I've never seen a game request root privileges, and I would think installation of anything kernel-level would need that. None of the steam binaries have setuid nor capabilities set.

Have anyone seen games that request root privileges?

EDIT: I'm gathering from this[1] and the fact that no wine-related package have kernel modules included and no executable from any of those packages have setuid nor capabilities set, that this isn't really a problem in Linux, just in Windows.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/gjzkzk/will_w...

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#40

Post by thesuitonym »

throwaway48476 wrote: post #24
jsheard wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I wanted to deploy a trojan horse then the last place I would try to hide it is in an anti-cheat driver that will without any doubt be exhaustively analysed by people attempting to bypass it.

State sponsored actors only target a few people and they only send the backdoored version to their target list.

Ah yes, that’s why stuxnet wasn’t a big deal
Post reply on HN