Live data from Hacker News

New discovery reveals how diatoms capture CO2 so effectively

unibas.ch

31–38 of 38 posts

Re: New discovery reveals how diatoms capture CO2 so effectively

#31
post #8

"The discovery of the PyShell could also open promising avenues for biotechnological research aimed at combatting climate change ..." I wonder. Given that the oceans are already full of these diatoms, and the numbers must be gigantic, would humans be able to do anything in the same order of magnitude?

You have made a subtle misalignment of figures here. Yes, these existing diatoms fix 20% of the Earth's CO2 and are present throughout the entire ocean. However, we don't need to compete with that volume. We don't have to do the same order of magnitude to meaningfully impact the carbon cycle. The Earth's carbon cycle manages about 750 gigatons of CO2/year and humans are emitting ~30 excess gigatons a year on top. The…

Here are a few reality checks that might unfortunately put a damper on your enthusiasm.

Our yearly emissions are 36GT and ever growing modulo a reprieve in COVID. It was only about 20 just 17 years ago. That means you need to sequester more and more every year just to keep a constant percentage of sequestration. If you include deforestation and wildfires, this number goes up to 41GT which means there’s a compound effect since current models suggest that’s part of a negative feedback loop (ie worse due to our actions and global warming).

Perhaps more importantly, the 750GT number you cited (whatever the real number happens to be) is 1.5x larger than before we started burning fossil fuels at scale. So to get the world back to where it was, not only do we need to overcome our yearly expenditure, we’d have to pay back a lot of CO2 emissions debt we’ve spent building our economy and even 10 GT/year won’t pay back nearly three centuries worth of exponentially increasing emissions on any meaningful time frame once the world is at net 0.

All of this is ignoring the practical realities of scaling carbon sequestration up in a way that’s net positive and even mildly profitable or at least not expensive enough that it doesn’t become a collective action problem.

I’d be the first to celebrate if this were an actual solution, but unfortunately I think carbon sequestration won’t be a meaningful effort to even think about in practical terms until we’re meaningfully on our way to net 0 and we’re well off from that with politicians thinking about maybe banning fossil fuel car sales in 2035 which means it’ll take until 2050 or so for a meaningful percentage of fossil fuel cars to start leaving the road. And ignoring the manufacturing challenges about producing so many batteries (which I think we will probably solve), we’re nowhere close to solving decarbonization of shipping and aviation and don’t have line of sight on the big whale of the energy grid which is responsible for >70% of all emissions (yes yes solar - but worldwide emissions from the energy grid keep going up and we haven’t even made a dent in the second order derivative and maybe just in the third order if you’re optimistic with every indication that we’d actually need nuclear to change the calculus in the short term).

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/152519/emissions-fr...

Re: New discovery reveals how diatoms capture CO2 so effectively

#32
post #4

"The discovery of the PyShell could also open promising avenues for biotechnological research aimed at combatting climate change ..." I wonder. Given that the oceans are already full of these diatoms, and the numbers must be gigantic, would humans be able to do anything in the same order of magnitude?

> "...would humans be able to do anything in the same order of magnitude?" Good question. Answering questions is called 'research'. ;-) I'm skeptical for the same reasons as you, too. Let's see... the ocean covers 361km^2. If we could engineer a material with "cells" that were 1000x as effective at carbon capture as diatoms, and the manufactured material was 1000x more densely packed together than diatoms are on the…

I’m skeptical that the entities that created this problem - first world countries, industries, politicians all supported by scientific advances can/will solve the problem they created.

The industry will look for a profit motive to solve this. The scientists will look for a publication and fame motive. The politicians will try to grab more power. The poor animals and other third world country people who had nothing to do with this will bear the brunt. Only time will tell.

Re: New discovery reveals how diatoms capture CO2 so effectively

#33
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When looking into the physics of infrared-absorption of CO2, I found papers about that quite interesting. Maybe climate change is not a political problem and not a technology problem - maybe it's a mental issue. Around my place people burned witches for 400 years - to fight lightning strikes. Removing gigatons of CO2 is maybe on the same level - only more stupid - and bad for plants. Arguments against witch burning d…

> When looking into the physics of infrared-absorption of CO2, I found papers about that quite interesting. >Maybe climate change is not a political problem and not a technology problem - maybe it's a mental issue. Care to connect these two thoughts for us?

> Emotions, despair, anger, ... these are a lot of emotional arguments in the media out there. People should be more cool and only care about the physic and mathematics... And actually read some papers - not this emotional science fluff from the media.

Re: New discovery reveals how diatoms capture CO2 so effectively

#34
post #27
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "...would humans be able to do anything in the same order of magnitude?" Good question. Answering questions is called 'research'. ;-) I'm skeptical for the same reasons as you, too. Let's see... the ocean covers 361km^2. If we could engineer a material with "cells" that were 1000x as effective at carbon capture as diatoms, and the manufactured material was 1000x more densely packed together than diatoms are on the…

Hmm... If we are removing CO2 at that rate from some place, then the concentration of CO2 in local atmosphere will drop. It will create a gradient so CO2 will start moving toward us, but what the maximum rate of CO2 diffusion? Wouldn't it impair our ability to miniaturize the ocean filled with diatoms as a CO2 absorber? Though probably one can try to create an artificial wind, blowing CO2-free air away so CO2 could m…

There are a lot of prevailing winds around the world. You'd have to go out of your way to find somewhere still enough that local concentration could drop, rather than just creating a very slight CO2 "shadow" downwind.

Re: New discovery reveals how diatoms capture CO2 so effectively

#35

"The discovery of the PyShell could also open promising avenues for biotechnological research aimed at combatting climate change ..." I wonder. Given that the oceans are already full of these diatoms, and the numbers must be gigantic, would humans be able to do anything in the same order of magnitude?

Extracting CO2 from the air likely requires some energy, and seafloor organisms are almost certainly energy-constrained. We could beat the seafloor simply by providing more energy, if we get within the ballpark of their efficiency. We have plenty of deserts and solar panels.

> if we get within the ballpark of their efficiency

In all likelihood, we can get ~10x better efficiency without trying very hard.

Living beings don't focus much on growing. They are usually less than 1% efficient on that, with more complex life being on the order of 0.1% efficient.

Re: New discovery reveals how diatoms capture CO2 so effectively

#36
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have made a subtle misalignment of figures here. Yes, these existing diatoms fix 20% of the Earth's CO2 and are present throughout the entire ocean. However, we don't need to compete with that volume. We don't have to do the same order of magnitude to meaningfully impact the carbon cycle. The Earth's carbon cycle manages about 750 gigatons of CO2/year and humans are emitting ~30 excess gigatons a year on top. The…

Here are a few reality checks that might unfortunately put a damper on your enthusiasm. Our yearly emissions are 36GT and ever growing modulo a reprieve in COVID. It was only about 20 just 17 years ago. That means you need to sequester more and more every year just to keep a constant percentage of sequestration. If you include deforestation and wildfires, this number goes up to 41GT which means there’s a compound eff…

Is it possible even in theory to make carbon sequestration profitable? You're going to use a ton of energy to make something that's readily available and for which there isn't much use other than burning (which obviously can't be a use for this).

Re: New discovery reveals how diatoms capture CO2 so effectively

#37
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When looking into the physics of infrared-absorption of CO2, I found papers about that quite interesting. >Maybe climate change is not a political problem and not a technology problem - maybe it's a mental issue. Care to connect these two thoughts for us?

> Emotions, despair, anger, ... these are a lot of emotional arguments in the media out there. People should be more cool and only care about the physic and mathematics... And actually read some papers - not this emotional science fluff from the media.

No need to be flippant. I can read your comment. That's in fact why I asked a question, it wasn't clear how "the physics of infrared-absorption of CO2" being interesting to you led to the idea that "Maybe climate change is not a political problem".

Repeating that you believe it's valuable to focus on data over emotion doesn't answer the question.

Re: New discovery reveals how diatoms capture CO2 so effectively

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are a few reality checks that might unfortunately put a damper on your enthusiasm. Our yearly emissions are 36GT and ever growing modulo a reprieve in COVID. It was only about 20 just 17 years ago. That means you need to sequester more and more every year just to keep a constant percentage of sequestration. If you include deforestation and wildfires, this number goes up to 41GT which means there’s a compound eff…

Is it possible even in theory to make carbon sequestration profitable? You're going to use a ton of energy to make something that's readily available and for which there isn't much use other than burning (which obviously can't be a use for this).

Maybe we can do things that aren't profitable because we believe they are the right thing to do?

But carbon can produce biochar and and just be pumped directly back into the ground. Getting it out of the atmosphere is the use.

Post reply on HN