Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#31

Post by 15155 » Mon, Oct 21, 2024, 3:33 PM UTC

ckmiaomix wrote: post #28

rKarpinski wrote: post #10

"Engineers have been spoiled rotten for the last two decades[...] employers offered unlimited PTO" In what world does unlimited PTO spoil engineers? It removes the companies liability for vacation days and shames employees into taking less time off.

Author here! Came when I saw my Substack blowing up. This isn't to imply that engineers are universally treated well, but that RELATIVE to other workers, they held far more bargaining power and faced better working conditions across the board. Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO. There's probably something broader to be said re: this point on bargaining power of work…

> Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO.

Is "unlimited PTO" a good thing?

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#32

Post by ckmiaomix » Mon, Oct 21, 2024, 3:33 PM UTC

Salgat wrote: post #12

And here I am thinking the rest of the workforce needs to be treated better, rather than using how poorly the rest of the workforce is treated as the ideal example to go by.

Hi! Author here - that's actually...kinda the point.

The good treatment you mentioned doesn't organically happen. Your leaders have to fight for it and maintain it. And eng leaders...just aren't in the fight right now.

If good eng leaders actually stepped up and brought the ethos of enabling creativity, autonomy, and well-being to the rest of the org, everyone would be in a better place.

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#33

Post by realitychx2020 » Mon, Oct 21, 2024, 3:35 PM UTC

15155 wrote: post #31

ckmiaomix wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here! Came when I saw my Substack blowing up. This isn't to imply that engineers are universally treated well, but that RELATIVE to other workers, they held far more bargaining power and faced better working conditions across the board. Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO. There's probably something broader to be said re: this point on bargaining power of work…

> Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO. Is "unlimited PTO" a good thing?

>> Is "unlimited PTO" a good thing?

Unlimited PTO means:

- If you are on a visa -- no PTO

- If you are part of the in-crowd friends with the boss -- unlimited PTO (see: @tech.unicorn for the lifestyle)

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#34

Post by compiler-guy » Mon, Oct 21, 2024, 3:36 PM UTC

realitychx2020 wrote: post #30

ckmiaomix wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here! Came when I saw my Substack blowing up. This isn't to imply that engineers are universally treated well, but that RELATIVE to other workers, they held far more bargaining power and faced better working conditions across the board. Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO. There's probably something broader to be said re: this point on bargaining power of work…

>> This isn't to imply that engineers are universally treated well, but that RELATIVE to other workers, they held far more bargaining power and faced better working conditions across the board. Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO. One might also argue that US residents disagree with you so much that they arent applying to tech jobs in sufficient quanities. The pay an…

They don't have the concept of unlimited PTO because it is a lie masquerading as an employee benefit entirely to serve the firm's accountants.

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#35

Post by 15155 » Mon, Oct 21, 2024, 3:36 PM UTC

realitychx2020 wrote: post #33

15155 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO. Is "unlimited PTO" a good thing?

>> Is "unlimited PTO" a good thing? Unlimited PTO means: - If you are on a visa -- no PTO - If you are part of the in-crowd friends with the boss -- unlimited PTO (see: @tech.unicorn for the lifestyle)

It actually means:

- No payout liability for the company

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#36

Post by RobRivera » Mon, Oct 21, 2024, 3:37 PM UTC

"The promise of AI put the nail in the coffin"

Statements that are so vague and so casually made as if they were fact simply sends my alarms ringing and makes me question both the intent and the arguments of the writing.

It is and different market, markets change over time. I think that's a non controversial statement.

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#37

Post by ckmiaomix » Mon, Oct 21, 2024, 3:37 PM UTC

15155 wrote: post #31

ckmiaomix wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here! Came when I saw my Substack blowing up. This isn't to imply that engineers are universally treated well, but that RELATIVE to other workers, they held far more bargaining power and faced better working conditions across the board. Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO. There's probably something broader to be said re: this point on bargaining power of work…

> Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO. Is "unlimited PTO" a good thing?

Buddy...the point is really, really not unlimited PTO.

NO ONE treated workers at scale like Google did in earlier decades. It was literally wild and unprecedented.

Engineers for many decades had unprecedented job mobility and bargaining power. Certainly not a bad thing in and of itself, but it's an outlier experience that's ending.

Unfortunately, companies don't organically and spontaneously decide to treat their workers well. Leaders need to fight for it...and most engineering leaders just aren't positioned to right now.

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#38

Post by realitychx2020 » Mon, Oct 21, 2024, 3:38 PM UTC

15155 wrote: post #35

realitychx2020 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Is "unlimited PTO" a good thing? Unlimited PTO means: - If you are on a visa -- no PTO - If you are part of the in-crowd friends with the boss -- unlimited PTO (see: @tech.unicorn for the lifestyle)

It actually means: - No payout liability for the company

> - No payout liability for the company

Yes, legally. Socially, however, you are just trading real days for however much political capital each individual has.

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#39

Post by closeparen » Mon, Oct 21, 2024, 3:38 PM UTC

Developers as people are happiest when productive. A company can say you need to sit in the useless meetings, write the TPS reports, use the shitty desktop, and wait 12 weeks for IT approval to update packages like everyone else because this is the grown up world and you’re not special. This might be a social status regulation play, but crucially it’s not an efficiency or cost saving play. Developers like forward progress and the things they complain about are generally the time wasters.

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#40

Post by Vegenoid » Mon, Oct 21, 2024, 3:38 PM UTC

zb1plus wrote: post #15

The further I go into my career, the more see the it the opposite way. I think business people are overvalued compared with most software engineers. If software engineers take the time to learn the "business", they can build their own companies that eclipse those started by the typical MBAs who view engineers as "pampered and coddled" cost centers. I think after the bubble pops, we'll see new companies that led by en…

I hope you are right, and I think looking at the past there is some truth to this. After the dotcom bubble burst and the 2008 crash, those are the times when a lot of strong engineering-focused tech companies were started.