Not before f but United Kingdom, even though for Shanghai later it is not just. One can say up until 2019 also not just …
Shanghai Before the Foreigners
31–40 of 43 posts
Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners
#32Loosely related, but two of my favourite quirks of historic international development / trade relating to China
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_International_Settl... The Americans/British and other European powers held and administered sovereign territory in Shanghai. Truly remarkable considering the historical implications.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteen_Factories
Also the “factories” in Canton each administered by a foreign power or “Hong” (i.e. Jardine Mathieson (worth a google if you are unfamiliar), the portraits on the wiki link paint an otherworldy romantic picture of what was a remarkably profitable and wild trade…
Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
For a country with nearly one billion poor people, one will never make all of them rich with one step. That is why China "allows some peasants to get rich first", and why they say "Common Prosperity Does Not Mean Equal Wealth" and "Those Who Become Prosperous First Helping Those Who Lag Behind". Although it is truly questionable if those get rich first want to help those lag behind, with a big government, it is more…
So trickle down economics ?
kind of, but with the actual intent to make it work. the lie behind "trickle down economics" wasn't that it can't or never works as advertised, but that it doesn't automatically happen just by letting people get rich and the reaganites talking about it never intended for it to work. basically every rich country got rich through some form of uneven development
Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
For a country with nearly one billion poor people, one will never make all of them rich with one step. That is why China "allows some peasants to get rich first", and why they say "Common Prosperity Does Not Mean Equal Wealth" and "Those Who Become Prosperous First Helping Those Who Lag Behind". Although it is truly questionable if those get rich first want to help those lag behind, with a big government, it is more…
So trickle down economics ?
"Trickle down economics" is a loaded term. It's not an actual theory advocated by any economist or politician[0].
[0] https://www.creators.com/read/thomas-sowell/01/14/the-trickl...
Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nanjing, just an hour or so up the river, is multiple thousands of years old and is one of the most important historical cities in Chinese history. So it is really no surprise that Shanghai was not developed until foreign trade became important.
> just an hour or so up the river Bullet train takes nearly 2 hours. So I assume it would take about half a day by boat. But still good point.
Haha, you’re absolutely right. It’s about 250-300 KM from the ocean.
Another thing to consider is the long historical record of Yangtze flooding and the depositing of silt and debris in the delta. Until good flood control structures were built, Shanghai is not really in a good place to grow.
Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners
#36Related: Taipan by James Ckavelk. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai-Pan_(novel) I had read it some years ago. Interesting depictions of that period, Hong Kong, interactions between the British and Chinese then, and more. Good writing, IMO. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clavell Excerpt: >Clavell wanted to write a second novel because "that separates the men from the boys".[21] The money from King Rat enabled…
I didn't realize Shogun was his third book. I somehow always thought it was his first. Also this > Clavell admired Ayn Rand, founder of the Objectivist school of philosophy Never meet your heroes, I suppose..
If you had read his books you wouldn't have been surprised. Libertarian capitalist ideals and individualism are themes throughout his works.
Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, Shenzhen is just one city. The metro area is the Pearl River Delta Metropolitan Region. That includes Hong Kong, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Zhuhai, Huizhou, Foshan, Zhongshan, and Dongguan. The metro area is about 75km across. 86 million people.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_River_Delta
You can randomly circle area. But that is integrated, even cat ones gov is not totally on charge of Shenzhen, let alone the hk even after suppressing freedom there. This is different kind of cats herding cf inside major china area.
Compare New York Metropolitan Area.[1] Involves several states. Not a governmental unit.
Metropolitan areas are usually computed by working outward until the density drops. Look at the Pearl River area in satellite imagery. It's a roughly circular high density region, and then farmland appears.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_metropolitan_area
Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
I didn't realize Shogun was his third book. I somehow always thought it was his first. Also this > Clavell admired Ayn Rand, founder of the Objectivist school of philosophy Never meet your heroes, I suppose..
If you had read his books you wouldn't have been surprised. Libertarian capitalist ideals and individualism are themes throughout his works.
>If you had read his books you wouldn't have been surprised.
Is that condescending tone improving the discussion quality, what do you think?
I have read at least Tai-Pan, Shogun and Gai-Jin. In Shogun it's harder to point out, but in the others sure. But they describe Western trade houses operating in Asia, so the themes you mention fit them quite well.
It's been a while since I read the books, and I might feel differently if I read them now with the randian perspective in mind.
Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
the Ming policy was never 100% effective and mostly just resulted in a lot of smuggling and piracy. The Qing attempted to get around this by literally forcibly moving everybody.
> the Ming policy was never 100% effective and mostly just resulted in a lot of smuggling and piracy I don't think this can really be a complete description of the situation. You can't stop smuggling as a phenomenon, because you can't oversee everything that happens everywhere. So, as much as you might wish it would, the law doesn't really apply to random smugglers. But by the time you're one of the 100 richest men i…
Haijin wasn't really meant to stop people from becoming more powerful than the court. It was supposed to starve out Japanese pirates.
In reality, the people who were trading mostly continued to do so, becoming pirates and smugglers themselves in the process, and Ming China simultaneously lost a bunch of tax revenue from trade as well as tying up a huge part of the labor force in enforcing a sea ban.
The Qing policy was more successful but also required all property destroyed within 30 miles of the coast or face the death penalty, which is extreme to say the least.
Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you had read his books you wouldn't have been surprised. Libertarian capitalist ideals and individualism are themes throughout his works.
>If you had read his books you wouldn't have been surprised. Is that condescending tone improving the discussion quality, what do you think? I have read at least Tai-Pan, Shogun and Gai-Jin. In Shogun it's harder to point out, but in the others sure. But they describe Western trade houses operating in Asia, so the themes you mention fit them quite well. It's been a while since I read the books, and I might feel diffe…
What does a "randian perspective" mean to you and why would the Clavell's admiration of Rand warrant the comment to "never meet your heroes"?