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Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

electrek.co

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Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#31

Post by CharlieDigital »

MrHamburger wrote: post #27
CharlieDigital wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno; to me, it seems as obvious as the sun-setting of steam powered locomotion. It's only a matter of time. And as we've seen, it's clear that the future of mobility is going to be electric. I find it hard to believe that if we look 50 years out, the majority will still be driving gasoline and diesel powered vehicles. So then the question is how and when do we get there? > ...people in Europe are not buying BEVs…

> But those are problems that governments need to help solve I don't think that it has a solution. Governments are trying to solve parking for decades and still no solution in sight. If you don't have where to park, you don't have where to charge.

> I don't think that it has a solution

Sure it does. China has the formula.

> If you don't have where to park, you don't have where to charge.

Incentivize broader buildout of charging infrastructure where people are already parking their existing cars. Fund R&D into new charging technology that can reduce charge times. Any number of ways to solve the problem.

If one starts from a mindset "this can't be solved", then chalk up the L.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#32

Post by simne »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #24
MrHamburger wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This coupled with BMW's recent pushback against EU ICE phaseout seems to paint a picture of legacy manufacturers unwilling to invest in what is the obvious path forward. It is not really obvious path when people in Europe are not buying BEVs unless there is some serious subsidy on it.

I dunno; to me, it seems as obvious as the sun-setting of steam powered locomotion. It's only a matter of time. And as we've seen, it's clear that the future of mobility is going to be electric. I find it hard to believe that if we look 50 years out, the majority will still be driving gasoline and diesel powered vehicles. So then the question is how and when do we get there? > ...people in Europe are not buying BEVs…

> if we look 50 years out, the majority will still be driving gasoline and diesel powered vehicles...when do we get there?

We already there, but to see this we need to turn off 4-wheel filter, and consider 2-wheel or even 1-wheels, and will see many people already use electric bikes, scooters, other electric.

So electricity already eat huge market share, and for other cases market shrink-ed and become obvious, electric cars are not good enough for now.

In US market is different, for example EU have very strong train infrastructure, so 1-2-wheel transport have very good fit.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#33

Post by MrHamburger »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #31
MrHamburger wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But those are problems that governments need to help solve I don't think that it has a solution. Governments are trying to solve parking for decades and still no solution in sight. If you don't have where to park, you don't have where to charge.

> I don't think that it has a solution Sure it does. China has the formula. > If you don't have where to park, you don't have where to charge. Incentivize broader buildout of charging infrastructure where people are already parking their existing cars. Fund R&D into new charging technology that can reduce charge times. Any number of ways to solve the problem. If one starts from a mindset "this can't be solved", then…

> Sure it does. China has the formula.

Build a new city? That's not going to work.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#34

Post by MrHamburger »

thebruce87m wrote: post #28
MrHamburger wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New VW Golf floats around 30k EUR, which is still 10k EUR cheaper than Tesla Model 3 and you still have 10k for fuel - that's with your difference is 8 years of driving. However 50% of people in EU does not have home charging (i.e. living in apartments) therefore they won't see your savings but they will see the wasted time on public chargers.

> New VW Golf floats around 30k EUR, which is still 10k EUR cheaper than Tesla Model 3 and you still have 10k for fuel - that's with your difference is 8 years of driving. OK? I chose an average to avoid cherry picking, so I don’t see the value of you cherry picking a cheaper car, it’s just going to be a race to the bottom. > However 50% of people in EU does not have home charging (i.e. living in apartments) therefor…

> Me: Or general mass market is not interested in BEVs specifically, but in a cheap vehicle which can get them from point A to point B.

> You: so I don’t see the value of you cherry picking a cheaper car, it’s just going to be a race to the bottom

That's how mass market works. People will always want cheap stuff. Not expensive. Not average. Cheap. Pretending that Model 3 is cheap compared to cheap ICE is delusional.

The whole problem with BEV infrastructure is that it currently makes no economical sense. Otherwise responsible people would be taking care for maintenance and expansion without governmental handouts.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#35

Post by thebruce87m »

MrHamburger wrote: post #34
thebruce87m wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> New VW Golf floats around 30k EUR, which is still 10k EUR cheaper than Tesla Model 3 and you still have 10k for fuel - that's with your difference is 8 years of driving. OK? I chose an average to avoid cherry picking, so I don’t see the value of you cherry picking a cheaper car, it’s just going to be a race to the bottom. > However 50% of people in EU does not have home charging (i.e. living in apartments) therefor…

> Me: Or general mass market is not interested in BEVs specifically, but in a cheap vehicle which can get them from point A to point B. > You: so I don’t see the value of you cherry picking a cheaper car, it’s just going to be a race to the bottom That's how mass market works. People will always want cheap stuff. Not expensive. Not average. Cheap. Pretending that Model 3 is cheap compared to cheap ICE is delusional.…

The average person wants the average. That’s what the average is. There will be people wanting cheap, and people wanting expensive but it all averages out to… the average.

I didn’t pretend the Model 3 was cheap compared to cheap ICE. I compared the price of a Model 3 to the average car price, and it was average.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#36

Post by MrHamburger »

thebruce87m wrote: post #35
MrHamburger wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Me: Or general mass market is not interested in BEVs specifically, but in a cheap vehicle which can get them from point A to point B. > You: so I don’t see the value of you cherry picking a cheaper car, it’s just going to be a race to the bottom That's how mass market works. People will always want cheap stuff. Not expensive. Not average. Cheap. Pretending that Model 3 is cheap compared to cheap ICE is delusional.…

The average person wants the average. That’s what the average is. There will be people wanting cheap, and people wanting expensive but it all averages out to… the average. I didn’t pretend the Model 3 was cheap compared to cheap ICE. I compared the price of a Model 3 to the average car price, and it was average.

That's a trap of average. When you have a guy buying Taycan for 100k EUR and guy buying Golf for 30k EUR then average car price is 65k EUR. Guy in Taycan does not care about average car and guy buying Golf can't afford this average priced car.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#37

Post by thebruce87m »

MrHamburger wrote: post #36
thebruce87m wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average person wants the average. That’s what the average is. There will be people wanting cheap, and people wanting expensive but it all averages out to… the average. I didn’t pretend the Model 3 was cheap compared to cheap ICE. I compared the price of a Model 3 to the average car price, and it was average.

That's a trap of average. When you have a guy buying Taycan for 100k EUR and guy buying Golf for 30k EUR then average car price is 65k EUR. Guy in Taycan does not care about average car and guy buying Golf can't afford this average priced car.

Well if you’re arguing that an average isn’t suitable and a median is more representative, I have good news for you - the article was actually conflating average and median:

> It’s just been revealed to me by Auto Trader that its “median new car RRP” figure for April 2024 was £41,738, rising to £42,340 in May – proving that already-high showroom prices continue to rise.

This means the model 3 is below the median new car price in the UK.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#38

Post by malfist »

charrondev wrote: post #16
jmisavage wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thankfully the exclusivity clause was finally dropped Nov of last year. Amazon has invested a lot of money into Rivian and if they want to recoup that investment it’s in their best interest not to needlessly hinder them. Still hoping the R2 launch gets them into the mainstream and profitable.

My biggest surprise with the non-Chinese EVs is that the range hasn’t been increasing. Rivian announced models r2 and r3 seem that are set to come in 2026 and 2027 seem to still be around 300 miles of range. Most other EVs are similar. At the same time Chinese EVs have ranges of of 500 and 600 miles. I don’t think I can purchase an EV as a primary vehicle until they catch up.

Rivian has some options in those ranges, but it gets really expensive. In all actuality 300 miles seems the sweet spot. Long enough to get you most places on a single charge at home except for the few long distance trips each year.

And even for those long distance trips 300 is a lot of time driving. It's 3-4 hours of driving before you charge. Split it up some and you stop every hour or two and use the bathroom and you don't even notice you're charging.

300 is the sweet spot if it's not winter and you don't have a heat pump because of the stupid decision to use the least efficient means of generating heat

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