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Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

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Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#31

Post by kortilla »

altairprime wrote: post #11
x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #5

I don't understand the airline's argument that they couldn't resell the seat. Of course not, it was already paid for! Can someone make sense of their argument for me, as it seems prima facia illegitimate.

Legacy US airlines don’t always price their seats logically based on fuel, tax, time, and wear costs. The price for a given multi-leg trip is sometimes discounted by Some Amount from the actual price you would pay buying each leg individually. This is exploitable by purchasing a discounted fare with (H) hops at price P(H) in order to fly (H-X) hops, where X > 0 and P(H-X) > P(H). I offer no speculation as to their mo…

That doesn’t answer the question though. If someone didn’t deplane and fulfilled the itinerary, it would cost the airline even more in fuel.

Their argument is complete nonsense that they could have sold the seat for more because it’s just as valid if you actually took the flight.

It’s like them taking action against you because you booked in advance and they decided they could have charged you more. WTF?

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#32

Post by kortilla »

ejddhbrbrrnrn wrote: post #16

I am on the airlines side really. They set the fare from A to B. If you start have people skipping they can no longer offer the competitive fares. The solution could be fines for doing it as a general principle. They also may cause delays due to final calls, security and manifest checks etc.

I implore you to explain how deplaning means they can’t be competitive.

If I jump out of the airplane halfway through a flight, how does that change their pricing beyond me saving them fuel?

The only way this makes sense is a segment rebate scheme for flights to underserved communities. But I don’t think this is what’s at play here because it’s not mentioned at all.

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#33

Post by pushedx »

exabrial wrote: post #13

Funny, in the rental market, most states literally _very enthusiastically_ enforce a housing regulation where is staunchly illegal charge rent to two people for the same property, regardless of whatever contracts they've signed. So you know, how the airlines might book 103% of capacity on a plane? oh yeah, straight to jail. Guy signed a lease and defaulted, you find a substitute renter and you don't cancel the origin…

Exactly, so it's very likely that the seat that they are concerned with will actually be filled, based on the way they operate right now.

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#34

Post by alex_young »

exabrial wrote: post #13

Funny, in the rental market, most states literally _very enthusiastically_ enforce a housing regulation where is staunchly illegal charge rent to two people for the same property, regardless of whatever contracts they've signed. So you know, how the airlines might book 103% of capacity on a plane? oh yeah, straight to jail. Guy signed a lease and defaulted, you find a substitute renter and you don't cancel the origin…

Except this happens all the time in hotels…

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#35

Post by altairprime »

kortilla wrote: post #31
altairprime wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legacy US airlines don’t always price their seats logically based on fuel, tax, time, and wear costs. The price for a given multi-leg trip is sometimes discounted by Some Amount from the actual price you would pay buying each leg individually. This is exploitable by purchasing a discounted fare with (H) hops at price P(H) in order to fly (H-X) hops, where X > 0 and P(H-X) > P(H). I offer no speculation as to their mo…

That doesn’t answer the question though. If someone didn’t deplane and fulfilled the itinerary, it would cost the airline even more in fuel. Their argument is complete nonsense that they could have sold the seat for more because it’s just as valid if you actually took the flight. It’s like them taking action against you because you booked in advance and they decided they could have charged you more. WTF?

If you’d booked (H) then you would have paid more; they’re upset that you cost them the unrealized profit of P(H-X) - P(H), and also upset at the lost opportunity of selling a double-booked ticket to another passenger into your empty seat for an additional P(whatever), without having to refund you for your unused flight leg. Two profit opportunities lost for one service rendered is, to a corporation, roughly equivalent to kicking someone while they’re down, and they tend to react spitefully when these are exploited at scale.

Their claim of dishonesty is simply a guise for their desire to charge you the difference P(H-X) - P(H) when you deboard early, which under current law they are prohibited from doing. Your individual fuel costs are a negligible fraction of that amount, and while your absence is indeed pure profit for them in terms of the raw expense of providing services to you, they’re greedily maximizing all possible profits scenarios in order to claim injury and damages here.

To emphasize, I think this is bullshit whining about a predatory pricing practice being exploited in favor of consumers. I also predict that lawsuits will earn the travel industries a lot more strict pricing regulations if they continue to sue over this practice, so that consumers can expect the prices of individual legs to add up to the price of a multi-leg trip — whether on plane, train, or bus — and which would fully neutralize both their complaints and the exploit. (In review, it could also end up costing them the right to overbook if their legacy practices earn an appropriate degree of scrutiny.)

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#37

Post by smashah »

I don't understand how someone can be barred from an airline because they got a better deal on it. At a certain point there must be an individual who would've been barred from every airline due to this at which point it becomes some sort of cruel punishment on an individual from a whole industry for really doing nothing illegal or wrong or causing a nuisance.

Airlines shouldn't be allowed to barr people simply for skipping a leg on a flight, no matter how much it may annoy someone in management.

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#38

Post by jmward01 »

nneonneo wrote: post #30
radpanda wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I like the idea of being hostile to the airlines so I’ve used Skiplagged to search for flights before but I’ve never found a hidden city itinerary that I actually wanted to take. I’m guessing it probably makes sense with certain airports with high fees near concentrations of wealth? E.g. maybe London->NYC costs more than London(->NYC)->Albany because NYC airports have high fees and airlines presume wealthier…

I don’t even think it’s a “wealthier clientele” thing. Some routes are literally subsidized - for example, the Essential Air Service program pays airlines to run flights to places that would otherwise be unprofitable to fly to, and due to the grants the airlines can offer the complete route for (relatively) cheap. So, for example, it might be expensive to fly New York to Chicago, but subsidized (and cheaper) to fly N…

The missing point in your argument though is that the people doing this didn't want to go to the destination. So if this wasn't an option, getting off before the subsidized destination, they wouldn't be flying anyway and the airline still wouldn't be getting the subsidy.

I'm still not seeing any real answer how this practice can exist in a true free market and how it doesn't indicate collusion in the airline industry.

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#39

Post by akira2501 »

jmward01 wrote: post #2

Seems like this practice in general shows that a true free market doesn't exist in the airline industry. If it did exist then flights like these wouldn't be profitable to sell in the first place.

We tried a free market airline industry. We rightfully second guessed that for the huge safety problems it created. We then recognized that the skies belong to the public, collectively, and access to it must be licensed as such and commercial activity within it strictly regulated.

Which would all probably work were it not for the obvious pathway to regulatory capture this creates. You need strong regulators that are heavily incentivized towards the American public and not the particular private airlines that happen to currently have a contract.

I wonder, if like banking, it would be smart to separate the companies that own the planes from the companies that actually operate them. A disinterested third party that actually holds the assets might serve as an actual wedge between the FAA and the "major airlines."

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#40

Post by ddingus »

blactuary wrote: post #15
wongarsu wrote: post #7

> Skiplagging is not illegal, but airlines view it as a policy violation that is grounds for termination of a traveler’s entire itinerary since the airline can't sell the empty seat in the onward flight. The poor airline, unable to sell an empty seat because ... checks notes ... the seat is already sold to someone, and that person decided not to show up. Truly the horror. Just think of all the revenue the airline los…

Yup, and since they routinely oversell flights, I have zero sympathy for them. Negative sympathy even

And the big four more or less quit going hard on price.
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