Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

michaelshermer.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 163 posts

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#31

Post by hulitu »

AStonesThrow wrote: post #3

Whether it is 14th century or an authentic relic, I still believe it's simply amazing to behold. We can explain what it's made of and guess at how old it is, and we can guess at its provenance and history, but there's simply no good explanation of how it was imprinted. The photo-negative imprint is nothing short of miraculous to me. Perhaps it's a miraculous forgery--doesn't matter anymore. The crucifix in a local pa…

> but there's simply no good explanation of how it was imprinted.

I think i saw the word "paint" somewhere.

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#32

Post by tsimionescu »

wrzuteczka wrote: post #29
tsimionescu wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That study [0] is published in a non-peer-reviewed journal with a very low impact factor, Heritage. Additionally, their findings suggests the shroud was kept within a very narrow range of temperatures to support the 1st century hypothesis, which makes it even more suspect. Additionally, their findings contradict a very well established C14 dating technique, in an extremely well documented and thought out study, using…

These 8 laboratories shared the same sample collected from a corner of the shroud. The priests handling the shroud would always hold it by its corners. So the explanation is not as weak as it may sound.

The priests handling the shroud didn't stop handling it in the 14th century. The fire it survived by dousing with water was from the 16th century. There is no reason whatsoever that all 8 laboratories happened to find the same contaminants from the same century.

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#33

Post by graemep »

mock-possum wrote: post #23
tsimionescu wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, the thing is not a shroud, it's essentially a 14th century painting, created as one of a myriad fake relics for money and fame. Second of all, if you believed it were a real ancient shroud, you would have to explain how the image on it was produced. Corpses don't leave images on shrouds, and even if it were true that everyone in ancient Israel were wrapped in a linen shroud when they died, people certai…

> you would have to explain how No, you’re making this too complicated. It happened miraculously because god is all-powerful and can do whatever, whenever. Boom. Solved. Easy.

I assume you are being sarcastic, but nonetheless worth pointing out that almost all miracles attributed to Jesus have some point and/or symbolic importance (e.g. to relive suffering, as an illustration of who he was, etc.).

A miraculous shroud just seems showy.

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#34

Post by graemep »

hulitu wrote: post #30
appguy wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wounds on the man on The Shroud match those of Jesus Christ in the Bible. The crown of thorns, scourging, crucifixion, piercing on the side.

Do you have a bible with photos ? I only have one with text. /s

A text that mentions scourging, a crown of thorns and a spear thrust in the side of the body.

It does not prove anything either way with regard to it being genuine or not, as a later forger/artist would have followed that, but if it is shown to be a genuine shroud with genuine marks then it makes it probable it was Jesus's.

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#35

Post by InsideOutSanta »

appguy wrote: post #20

Something that amazes me about The Shroud of Turin is that if it was created in the 14th century, how did they create a photographic negative 400 years before the first known photographic negative was created in 1826 by Nicephore Niepce. It’s the most studied artifact in history and still no one knows how The Shroud was created.

People in the 14th century were no dumber than people living today, and painters like Duccio di Buoninsegna had a great understanding of shadows, and were capable of drawing amazing portraits.

They were absolutely capable of painting a negative of a portrait.

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#36

Post by [deleted] »

graemep wrote: post #34
hulitu wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a bible with photos ? I only have one with text. /s

A text that mentions scourging, a crown of thorns and a spear thrust in the side of the body. It does not prove anything either way with regard to it being genuine or not, as a later forger/artist would have followed that, but if it is shown to be a genuine shroud with genuine marks then it makes it probable it was Jesus's.

[deleted]

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#37

Post by BobaFloutist »

graemep wrote: post #33
mock-possum wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you would have to explain how No, you’re making this too complicated. It happened miraculously because god is all-powerful and can do whatever, whenever. Boom. Solved. Easy.

I assume you are being sarcastic, but nonetheless worth pointing out that almost all miracles attributed to Jesus have some point and/or symbolic importance (e.g. to relive suffering, as an illustration of who he was, etc.). A miraculous shroud just seems showy.

The symbolic importance of striking barren a fig tree that had the audacity to not be bearing fruit out of season.

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#38

Post by InDubioProRubio »

encoderer wrote: post #7

The clergy in the 14th century were absolutely unmoored. Everything was for sale. You could pre-pay for absolution for future sins. They sold relics of everything - Jesus hair, even parts of the “burning bush” from the Old Testament. The first crusade brought back real treasures and relics that made the perfect pretense for a century of grifters. That was all pretty much stopped later that century though by a few bad…

Clergy back then basically was a hacker culture- as in you get the suckers to buy some relic or immortality paperwork and have a nice life extracting resources and giving nothing in return.

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#39

Post by brentpen »

appguy wrote: post #20

Something that amazes me about The Shroud of Turin is that if it was created in the 14th century, how did they create a photographic negative 400 years before the first known photographic negative was created in 1826 by Nicephore Niepce. It’s the most studied artifact in history and still no one knows how The Shroud was created.

Recent research has discovered the "stroboscopic effect" in the image. The hands and feet are moving when the image was imprinted on the shroud.

Strobe lights didn't exist in the 14th century either.

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#40

Post by hluska »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #16
fsckboy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

your family has been passing down a family bible for many years. your father gives it to you and says, "this was your great-great-great-great grandfather's, he brought it from the old country, and it has the names of all the babies born into the family back then. you say "eh, it could be anybody's, everybody had a bible and lots of kids back then" and you throw it away. you're right, no way to prove it was his and yo…

"no point in looking for meaning." You say it I think sarcastically. I'm not sure. But not spending a life going down rabbit holes that are most likely false, is not giving up on searching for meaning. It is just switching to more fruitful avenues to spend the limited time we have on looking for meaning.

Why do these conversations inevitably move into insults? As soon as humans get into the subject of belief, someone always says something like “it’s just switching to more fruitful avenues.”

If something works for you, that’s great. But why do people automatically say that their way is better? Does being right really matter?

We could have a really great world if we’d just let people believe in whatever works for them.

Post reply on HN