My metaphor for product leadership is a Jazz Band: step back and let your players shine.
But then you don’t need product managers at all, or at least not full time.
Product management is hosting a party, not playing chess
31–40 of 42 posts
Re: Product management is hosting a party, not playing chess
#32Re: Product management is hosting a party, not playing chess
#33I think that "hosting a party" is a bad analogy, because it implies that a lack of inclusion is a bad thing. People who aren't invited presumably feel bad, and the person who is responsible for the invites is judged for who they include/don't include. Parties are about being social and having a good time. Customer-facing product meetings are about trying to understand and potentially solve a customer problem. The dynamics in play are quite different, and recognizing this is important.
As a developer, I was regularly on customer-facing calls, and I think that having devs on calls is often really important. As a developer, I was also pulled into many calls that were a huge waste of my time.
A big part of being effective as a PM involved knowing when to pull people in, and who, often based on who the customer is and the nature of the problem they had. If this call is the result of an escalation from some huge customer, it's really critical to bring someone in who will calm them, not agitate them. If the call is just an exploration of potential roadmap items, getting more devs into the room can be beneficial.
To whatever extent there's a time to "party", it's also entirely appropriate to play chess and be strategic when necessary. That means that some devs are involved less than others at times, for the same reason that a top wide receiver gets the ball more than 2nd stringers.
(Editing to say: On 2nd thought, "2nd stringers" isn't a great analogy either. I'd say it's more about positional players. Each person on the team has a unique skillset. People are strong in some areas and weaker in others. Some are hired specifically because of one skillset vs. another. That's not an indictment of the person, but just the reality of the makeup of a team at any given time. Asking a fullback to run a deep route doesn't make sense. Asking your best-in-the-world database guy who tends to have no patience for customers and rubs them the wrong way doesn't make sense. But do cultivate these skillsets and provide opportunities for growth).
That doesn't mean the 2nd stringers shouldn't get more reps, or that they can't learn the skills. I've worked with devs who wanted to be better with customers and asked for that opportunity, and I was always eager to give them that opportunity. But not everyone wants this, some people prove not to be capable of this, and that's fine.
I think the author's point that some product people are inappropriately dismissive is a fair one. I've worked with PMs who had a terrible relationship with their devs, and who were fairly criticized for their protectionism. But the solution to this isn't to start throwing parties. As with most things in life, reality is a bit more complex, and the answer far more nuanced.
Bottom line:
- Some devs are great with customers
- Some devs are awful with customers
- Some devs want and can learn how to be better with customers
- Some customer calls need devs involved
- Some (many) customer calls would be a complete waste of the dev team's time
- Understanding who's who and what's needed for a given circumstance is the key
Re: Product management is hosting a party, not playing chess
#34One of the pair of experts was very technical, possibly nervous/uncomfortable, and not projecting any charisma by default. Though warmed up when you had an intelligent question, and not in a I-know-something-you-don't way, but an I'm-glad-to-be-talking-with-a-fellow-techie way.
And the other of the pair was immediately charming and gracious to everyone. Maybe the kind of person you'd want in the C-suite or boardroom, and also doing management by walking around the shop floor, and talking with the line workers.
So, on a project email list or similar, one of the employees (who I was supplementing as a contractor) for some reason was dissing the expert pair as "troglodytes" or something like that. I think probably simultaneously dissing the initial manner of the one very-technical person, and also the old-school tradition they came from.
Knowing my place as a mere contractor, but rejecting my place (per usual), I spoke up, and said that I'd actually met with them, and they were charming. And they had essential knowledge that no one else had.
The higher-poise person of that pair of experts was maybe also serving a bit of a party host role. Though, when they can't be selective of all the party introductions that must be made, the introductions also depend on all the guests also being reasonably gracious. Calling a fellow guest a troglodyte wouldn't sound nice, nor lend itself to an "effective" party.
Re: Product management is hosting a party, not playing chess
#35Seems like there are some steps missing between the quoted at the beginning and the outrage in the article. I don’t really understand the specifics of the complaint. My main thought reading the quote at the top is, “you shouldn’t call people ‘neckbeards’”. But it is also true that not all engineers want to talk to customers. Don’t judge a fish by how well they ride a bicycle, and all that. “It takes all kinds” is a b…
There's a lot of value in the entire product team understanding the customer/user. My interpretation of the piece so far is that it's suggesting that leaders think about their role wrt to this as like the party host, who figures out how to facilitate socializing by each individual, to make the party successful. Rather than as the chess master, who keeps everything to themself in their head (and there's a lot of pawns…
This has to be the most common fallacious line of thought that I see in discussions about roles and experiences at work.
Whether something has a lot of value is, well, irrelevant. There are just too many different things that provide a lot of value to the team. The problem is that things that provide value come with a cost and sometimes with harsh tradeoffs.
If you decide that everybody on your engineering team must interact with customers, then maybe you get the value—but you also drive away some valuable team members who don’t like customer-facing roles. Your team becomes more homogeneous and you lose some diversity of thought. Most teams need a combination of viewpoints to succeed—we don’t just need to develop our customer focus, but also our focus on tech, on operations, on finance, on personnel, etc.
Another way I see this fallacious reasoning pop up is when people say that managers should be engineers or have an engineering background… because managers are better managers if they have an engineering background. All other factors being equal, this is true! But a lot of similar things are true, like how engineers would be better engineers if the had management backgrounds. We must accept some level of specialization because specialization is good for the team. Specialization doesn’t just mean that people have additional skills, it also means that people are missing skills.
Re: Product management is hosting a party, not playing chess
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's a lot of value in the entire product team understanding the customer/user. My interpretation of the piece so far is that it's suggesting that leaders think about their role wrt to this as like the party host, who figures out how to facilitate socializing by each individual, to make the party successful. Rather than as the chess master, who keeps everything to themself in their head (and there's a lot of pawns…
> There's a lot of value in the entire product team understanding the customer/user. This has to be the most common fallacious line of thought that I see in discussions about roles and experiences at work. Whether something has a lot of value is, well, irrelevant. There are just too many different things that provide a lot of value to the team. The problem is that things that provide value come with a cost and someti…
I was kinda acknowledging a relatively uncontroversial point on which the article was predicated, before moving on responding to the parent comment with my interpretation of the more novel contribution of the article.
Agreed about a lot of things having value, diversity of viewpoints and skillsets also having value and being a reality, that not everyone wants to be customer-facing, and the importance of not emphasizing one bit of folk wisdom to the exclusion of other wisdom.
Re: Product management is hosting a party, not playing chess
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There's a lot of value in the entire product team understanding the customer/user. This has to be the most common fallacious line of thought that I see in discussions about roles and experiences at work. Whether something has a lot of value is, well, irrelevant. There are just too many different things that provide a lot of value to the team. The problem is that things that provide value come with a cost and someti…
I intentionally said "understanding the customer", rather than "being customer-facing". I was kinda acknowledging a relatively uncontroversial point on which the article was predicated, before moving on responding to the parent comment with my interpretation of the more novel contribution of the article. Agreed about a lot of things having value, diversity of viewpoints and skillsets also having value and being a rea…
Re: Product management is hosting a party, not playing chess
#38That's a shame in my opinion, because this is a person that has been working to make life better for developers in the industry for a long time. And Kent's place in the software history books is assured, he surely impacted the industry for the better.
Re: Product management is hosting a party, not playing chess
#39if product management is hosting a party, it is usually a party of people that speak about 10 different languages, and everyone needs to get along in the next 15 minutes or else.
generally, some developers can be exposed to some clients sometimes. but not all developers to all clients all the time.
Re: Product management is hosting a party, not playing chess
#40Having a sales meeting with the CIO, CTO, VP Procurement, etc. of a Fortune 500 company is unlike any conversation a non-customer facing engineer would have ever had in their life. Dealing with these people is like golden gloves boxing. Every other move they make is a head fake or a trap. Before you open your mouth and take one step forward, you better have your back foot planted or else they're going to knock you on…
They wouldn't send a fresh MBA to those meetings either. There are plenty of low stakes meetings that they can join to get practice. The article seems more concerned about the practice of "hiding" engineers behind 2-3 layers.
I have a theory that the reason why we see so much resume-driven development is that engineers are only given a small slice of the business that they have control of. Of course they will fill it with over engineered solutions and the latest trends. That's the small world that they live in.
I think developers with close contact with customers and business tends to create more pragmatic solutions, because they have much more room to maneuver and can be motivated by seeing the impact and not necessarily trying to find the next piece of hot tech