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"Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

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Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#31
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without evidence it is real, the default assumption is it's not. People can behave irrationally, but that's no reason to expect any particular irrational action.

Well you have many examples of man and women who display this seemingly irrational behavior. Saying its not real leaves the question why the victims side with the perpetrator in those scenarios.

Do you have any examples where the victims side with the perpetrator and after exhaustive search there isn't any rational explanation for them doing so?

Assuming there is some condition that causes people to display a particular irrational behavior is typically god-of-the-gaps thinking - that you don't understand their motivations does not mean they don't have them.

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#32

A recent similar example is dying of "Excited Delirium" https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4951 , which was made up by police and the taser manufacturer

The thing is it happens even when tasers aren't involved. The reality is that if you pump somebody up enough with stimulants there's a possibility that the rebound is fatal.

But how often does it happen when cops aren't involved. If this were a medical phenomenon we'd expect to see familiarity with it among emergency room staff, homeless outreach, and other front line mental health workers. Do we?

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#33
post #8

I'm glad to learn more about the incident itself, but honestly the article does not give me a real reason to doubt that the phenomenon is real. Calling it a "diagnosis" is an attempt to medicalize it, which seems ridiculous as it is so incredibly situation-specific. And they in turn use this to attempt to undermine the "diagnosis" by a psychiatrist who never met with the patient; clearly meeting the patient and being…

> article does not give me a real reason to doubt that the phenomenon is real

I think framing it as something pathological is what's doubtful. It's perfectly human reaction to try to form bonds in the environment you found yourself in with whoever is there to increase your chances of survival. And to feel distrustful of wannabe soldiers pointing guns in your general direction with the goal of bringing back business as usual as promptly as feasible (from PR standpoint) rather than saving your life.

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#34
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they sided with their captors against the authorities. Because the authorities told them point blank they would rather the hostages die than the captors walk free. That's not some unique phenomenon, that's what any rational person would do. In the last paragraph, the article states a 2008 review basically found that stockholm syndrome is pop science, not a well defined and experimentally verified phenomenon. While…

"Told them point blank" -- I mean, there was no private channel where police could confidentially tell the hostages about this. It's a negotiation point -- make the hostage-takers aware that they do not have unlimited immunity from consequences just because they have hostages. If the police had caused injury to come to a hostage, whether as collateral damage from police action or from the captors retaliating for poli…

> Sensing that their likelihood of survival was getting slimmer by the hour, Enmark took matters into her own hands. She called the Swedish prime minister, Olof Palme, and begged him to let her and another hostage leave the bank with their captors. ‘I fully trust Clark and the robber,’ she told Palme. ‘I am not desperate. They haven’t done athing to us. On the contrary, they have been very nice. But you know, Olof, what I’m scared of is that the police will attack and cause us to die.’ Palme refused to let her leave, saying they could not give in to the demands of criminals. At the end of the conversation, Enmark says Palme said ‘Well, Kristin, you can’t get out of the bank. You will have to content yourself that you will have died at your post.’

If someone said this to you, would you be on their side?

> "Pop science" seems orthogonal to this concept -- it's like saying the concept of "jury of your peers" is pop science.

What? Pop science in this context means something that is widely believed to be rooted in scientific fact by the general public but actually isn't.

> But in hostage negotiation and rescue, keeping in mind that the hostages may not be sympathetic or cooperative with the authorities seems like a really great thing to keep in mind.

That's moving the goal posts dramatically. The whole point of this article is that stockholm syndrome does not have descriptive power because there are no scientific criteria to delineate what it is, when it's happening, or even if it's real. You can name things that don't exist, like dragons, but that does not mean people should be using dragons as an explanation for what they observe.

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#35
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Told them point blank" -- I mean, there was no private channel where police could confidentially tell the hostages about this. It's a negotiation point -- make the hostage-takers aware that they do not have unlimited immunity from consequences just because they have hostages. If the police had caused injury to come to a hostage, whether as collateral damage from police action or from the captors retaliating for poli…

> Sensing that their likelihood of survival was getting slimmer by the hour, Enmark took matters into her own hands. She called the Swedish prime minister, Olof Palme, and begged him to let her and another hostage leave the bank with their captors. ‘I fully trust Clark and the robber,’ she told Palme. ‘I am not desperate. They haven’t done athing to us. On the contrary, they have been very nice. But you know, Olof, w…

If Clark had a gun to my head and Olof was refusing to give them what they wanted I would be pretty upset with Olof but way more upset with Clark. I might convince myself that Clark is super nice and only holding a gun to my head because of something something, but that's the essence of Stockholm syndrome in the end.

I disagree that Stockholm syndrome is "widely believed to be rooted in scientific fact" -- I would say that "Stockholm Syndrome is widely believed to be a real phenomenon" and remove the pretension of "science" from the equation entirely.

I don't feel that I'm moving the goalposts -- what, in your mind, is the "application" of the theory of Stockholm Syndrome other than what I've said here? Do you honestly believe that hostage negotiators are saying "if the hostages get in your way, shoot them because they have Stockholm Syndrome Which Is A Scientific Fact"?

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#36
post #14
post #8

I'm glad to learn more about the incident itself, but honestly the article does not give me a real reason to doubt that the phenomenon is real. Calling it a "diagnosis" is an attempt to medicalize it, which seems ridiculous as it is so incredibly situation-specific. And they in turn use this to attempt to undermine the "diagnosis" by a psychiatrist who never met with the patient; clearly meeting the patient and being…

> they sided with their captors against the authorities. Because the authorities told them point blank they would rather the hostages die than the captors walk free. That's not some unique phenomenon, that's what any rational person would do. In the last paragraph, the article states a 2008 review basically found that stockholm syndrome is pop science, not a well defined and experimentally verified phenomenon. While…

But how come she ignored the fact that the root cause of all of that was the captors? I think that's the crazy part.

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#37
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Told them point blank" -- I mean, there was no private channel where police could confidentially tell the hostages about this. It's a negotiation point -- make the hostage-takers aware that they do not have unlimited immunity from consequences just because they have hostages. If the police had caused injury to come to a hostage, whether as collateral damage from police action or from the captors retaliating for poli…

> Sensing that their likelihood of survival was getting slimmer by the hour, Enmark took matters into her own hands. She called the Swedish prime minister, Olof Palme, and begged him to let her and another hostage leave the bank with their captors. ‘I fully trust Clark and the robber,’ she told Palme. ‘I am not desperate. They haven’t done athing to us. On the contrary, they have been very nice. But you know, Olof, w…

But how can a rational person believe the police is at fault compared to captors like it's a normal thing to take hostages?

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#38

A recent similar example is dying of "Excited Delirium" https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4951 , which was made up by police and the taser manufacturer

In addition to Parental Alienation Syndrome (PAS)[1], Legal Insanity[2], Battered Woman Syndrome (BWS)[3], and Child Sexual Abuse Accommodation Syndrome (CSAAS)[4]. These may involve the testimony of medical experts, but do not exist as formal diagnoses and are therefore not clinical labels. Instead they exist in as legal labels of persons, in order to affect some legal conclusion.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_alienation_syndrome

2. https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/when-is-a-person-legally-i...

3. https://jaapl.org/content/early/2022/06/20/JAAPL.210105-21

4. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/978111862539...

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#39
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you have many examples of man and women who display this seemingly irrational behavior. Saying its not real leaves the question why the victims side with the perpetrator in those scenarios.

Do you have any examples where the victims side with the perpetrator and after exhaustive search there isn't any rational explanation for them doing so? Assuming there is some condition that causes people to display a particular irrational behavior is typically god-of-the-gaps thinking - that you don't understand their motivations does not mean they don't have them.

I don't agree with the premise that coming up with an explanation for Stockholm Syndrome means it's not real. "People in captivity may develop emotional bonds with the violent criminals threatening to kill them" is an important fact for police and hostage negotiators to know, even if every single facet of that behavior is rational.

I would also, though, strongly question the idea that it was rational in the original case the parent article cites. Plausible arguments for distrusting the police, sure, but it makes no sense to "fully trust" two criminals who are holding you captive and plan to murder you if they don't get their way.

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#40
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sensing that their likelihood of survival was getting slimmer by the hour, Enmark took matters into her own hands. She called the Swedish prime minister, Olof Palme, and begged him to let her and another hostage leave the bank with their captors. ‘I fully trust Clark and the robber,’ she told Palme. ‘I am not desperate. They haven’t done athing to us. On the contrary, they have been very nice. But you know, Olof, w…

But how can a rational person believe the police is at fault compared to captors like it's a normal thing to take hostages?

Surely the question is whose fault it is, but whose side offers more chances for survival; apparently, in this case, it was the wrong side.
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