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Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

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Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#31

Post by torginus »

jvanderbot wrote: post #26
torginus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure - but Waymo and a few Chinese vendors already have self-driving robotaxis in production. That, combined with the AI boom, tells me that building a self-driving car (even if geofenced and/or L3) is on the horizon. If that's the case, Tesla will probably figure this out as well.

"Traditional" self-driving stacks use a ton of pre-built maps, lidar and other range sensors, and has teams of people keeping those maps registered and up to date. Tesla's plan is (or has become) to do an end-run around all that, and just train a giant network on camera-only sensor stacks, so that it can navigate without large 3D representations of the environment / city in which it works, without expensive lidar/rad…

End users don't care about the tech details as long as it works - and it does, so Tesla might start sweating about Waymo eating their lunches. Maybe they'll also move towards the mapping approach, which would mean they'd have to have maps constantly updated. That'd mean recurring costs for them.

Besides, I'm pretty sure some degree of mapping is necessary - I know some seriously wonky roads with poor visibility, tons of shoulder lanes, roundabouts, and stop-and-go traffic, where I need to know which lane to get in half a kilometer before the turn comes up.

Most people can't figure it out at the first glance - I usually see a couple trying and failing every day.

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#32

Post by davej »

lm28469 wrote: post #15
fragmede wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried it? it's not there but it's close. Even Ford's Blue Cruise is half way there.

Try driving in a small Italian town, on a Swiss mountain roads during a snow storm, &c. The last 20% are the hardest so if you're only 50% of the way there you haven't even started the hard part

Here you go, FSD in Italy: https://youtu.be/tsE089adyoQ?si=Uo72mxf63DQNn7qG

It generalises quite well even though it’s only trained on US roads AFAIK.

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#33

Post by Zenzero »

fooker wrote: post #27
Zenzero wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert, but anyone can look at the sensors placed on a Waymo compared to a Tesla and likely rightly assume Waymo doesn't have all of that extra stuff just for looks. I don't see how Tesla is even a serious contender.

The hypothesis was that LIDAR was a crutch, humans manage with just vision. Whether this is correct for delivering self driving cars, we will find out soon enough. Long term though, it definitely makes sense. We just don't know what the missing pieces of the puzzle are.

> humans manage with just vision.

But they don't. I can't see how anyone could look at modern driving and see an optimal state. Driving isn't being managed at all, it's killing droves of humans.

If we put the same restrictions on airplanes (flying by instrument is a crutch), everyone would rightfully find that ridiculous.

They appear to have bet on the wrong technology. The failure happened back in the design phase.

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#34

Post by darby_nine »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #2

Tesla owners agree to binding arbitration when purchasing a vehicle, unless they opt out within a window of time in writing. This means consumers will need to engage their state attorney generals and federal regulators for the fraud perpetrated that Tesla is attempting to scrub with these changes: that Full Self Driving unsupervised/robotaxis are not coming as promised when the FSD package was sold by Tesla and purch…

> Tesla owners agree to binding arbitration when purchasing a vehicle

Remember when the law made sense? Me neither.

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#35

Post by epolanski »

mrich wrote: post #9
daghamm wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some Teslas don't have the sensor hardware and the compute power to do road-safe FSD. This is something Tesla engineers learned the hard way. Things may change in the future as we make advances in computing and AI, but right now it is not possible.

So it's ok to sell a feature to customers if you only find out later it's not possible?

It's Elon Musk after all.

His boldness and thinking he's exceptional is both the reason of his success and failures.

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#36

Post by epolanski »

jvanderbot wrote: post #26
torginus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure - but Waymo and a few Chinese vendors already have self-driving robotaxis in production. That, combined with the AI boom, tells me that building a self-driving car (even if geofenced and/or L3) is on the horizon. If that's the case, Tesla will probably figure this out as well.

"Traditional" self-driving stacks use a ton of pre-built maps, lidar and other range sensors, and has teams of people keeping those maps registered and up to date. Tesla's plan is (or has become) to do an end-run around all that, and just train a giant network on camera-only sensor stacks, so that it can navigate without large 3D representations of the environment / city in which it works, without expensive lidar/rad…

> something like lvl 3 autonomy before any other company did

I'm quite sure Mercedes-Benz was the first to bring lvl 3 autonomy on the market.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/09/mercedes-benzs-level-3-...

It is also the only carmaker confident enough in the system that it takes full liability over it

> Confidence in Drive Pilot is high within Mercedes-Benz, as the system has been active in Germany for over a year without incident. That confidence is demonstrated by Mercedes’ decision to assume liability for the vehicle while Drive Pilot is in use. That’s a particularly bold move since no other manufacturer offers that kind of assurance.

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#37

Post by bravetraveler »

davej wrote: post #28
peutetre wrote: post #3

> Previously, customers were offered the option to purchase “Full Self-Driving Capability,” They were offered a lie. Tesla still hasn't delivered what those customers paid for. > Let’s look at what else has changed on Tesla’s website on FSD before we dive into the wording changes. Another recent change on Tesla's website is to remove old blog posts, including a 2016 blog post in which Tesla claimed "as of today, all…

> Another recent change on Tesla's website is to remove old blog posts, including a 2016 blog post in which Tesla claimed … Perhaps unintended but this is a bit misleading. Tesla changed their blog system and didn’t migrate older posts. My initial reading of your comment was that they selectively removed some older posts which they wanted to hide.

My reading of your post is they changed systems for plausible deniability

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#38

Post by TheAceOfHearts »

jvanderbot wrote: post #26
torginus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure - but Waymo and a few Chinese vendors already have self-driving robotaxis in production. That, combined with the AI boom, tells me that building a self-driving car (even if geofenced and/or L3) is on the horizon. If that's the case, Tesla will probably figure this out as well.

"Traditional" self-driving stacks use a ton of pre-built maps, lidar and other range sensors, and has teams of people keeping those maps registered and up to date. Tesla's plan is (or has become) to do an end-run around all that, and just train a giant network on camera-only sensor stacks, so that it can navigate without large 3D representations of the environment / city in which it works, without expensive lidar/rad…

A slight correction, in a recent interview Karpathy (ex Tesla AI research / engineer) clarified that Tesla uses additional sensors during training but deployment only uses cameras.

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#39

Post by have_faith »

fooker wrote: post #27
Zenzero wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert, but anyone can look at the sensors placed on a Waymo compared to a Tesla and likely rightly assume Waymo doesn't have all of that extra stuff just for looks. I don't see how Tesla is even a serious contender.

The hypothesis was that LIDAR was a crutch, humans manage with just vision. Whether this is correct for delivering self driving cars, we will find out soon enough. Long term though, it definitely makes sense. We just don't know what the missing pieces of the puzzle are.

Human vision has a dynamic range of roughly ~21 stops, plus other differences, do we have any cameras that come close to the human eyes "specs"?

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#40

Post by CooCooCaCha »

anonzzzies wrote: post #4

So, Musk did repeat the FSD 'any moment' last earnings call and robotaxis using it this september (now) as well. And then they do this. That is why I found it very strange that anyone believes his recent Mars timelines; people I consider smart (PG for instance [0]) are awe struck by such an announcement while we all know that Elon is often decades off. Don't get me wrong, besides his political gibberish and twitter m…

> at least he tries

We should hold people accountable for their behavior regardless.

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