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Clearview AI faces $45.6M fine in the Netherlands for 'illegal database of faces

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Re: Clearview AI faces $45.6M fine in the Netherlands for 'illegal database of faces

#31

Post by fsndz »

arlort wrote: post #21
fsndz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay I get it now, GDPR. But is it bad if it is used to catch criminals ? What's a potential misuse of that technology ? Maybe I watched too much of Person Of Internet...

> What's a potential misuse of that technology ? Off the top of my head it telling that someone is a criminal when they aren't and ruining their lives

even without tech, justice system is already ruining people's lives unjustly. so maybe we have to discuss failure rate, processes in place to correctly use the tech, instead of just saying it has to be bad ? the question is will the tech help ruin more people lives that was already the case or not or improve the odds in some cases even

Re: Clearview AI faces $45.6M fine in the Netherlands for 'illegal database of faces

#32

Post by rsynnott »

slg wrote: post #23
piva00 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the problem is that a private company doing it against data privacy regulations in the EU; collecting personally identifiable information and biometrics is regulated through the GDPR, the article clearly states the issue: > The Dutch agency said that building the database and insufficiently informing people whose images appear in the database amounted to serious breaches of the European Union's General Data Prot…

It isn't shocking that an American company would run into issues like this in the EU as it is one of the fundamental differences between American and European society. By and large, Europeans would rather this type of thing be in the hands of the government over a private company while Americans would prefer the reverse.

I mean, I think many people would rather that this was in the hands of _neither_, tbh.

The AI Act (note that this fine was under prior legislation, not the rather new AI Act) bans this except for specified national security purposes, but I'd certainly have preferred to see it ban it entirely.

Re: Clearview AI faces $45.6M fine in the Netherlands for 'illegal database of faces

#33

Post by rsynnott »

fsndz wrote: post #31
arlort wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's a potential misuse of that technology ? Off the top of my head it telling that someone is a criminal when they aren't and ruining their lives

even without tech, justice system is already ruining people's lives unjustly. so maybe we have to discuss failure rate, processes in place to correctly use the tech, instead of just saying it has to be bad ? the question is will the tech help ruin more people lives that was already the case or not or improve the odds in some cases even

> even without tech, justice system is already ruining people's lives unjustly

Sure, but as with a lot of this stuff, this allows that to be done _at scale_. "[bad thing] happens anyway" isn't a great argument against "we should ban this thing where [bad thing] is likely to happen at massive frequency".

Re: Clearview AI faces $45.6M fine in the Netherlands for 'illegal database of faces

#34

Post by mikae1 »

swyx wrote: post #22
piva00 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the problem is that a private company doing it against data privacy regulations in the EU; collecting personally identifiable information and biometrics is regulated through the GDPR, the article clearly states the issue: > The Dutch agency said that building the database and insufficiently informing people whose images appear in the database amounted to serious breaches of the European Union's General Data Prot…

> "Clearview AI does not have a place of business in the Netherlands or the EU, it does not have any customers in the Netherlands or the EU, and does not undertake any activities that would otherwise mean it is subject to the GDPR," he said. what limits do we place on countries randomly being able to make supranational claims like this? do you want every online business checking the passport of their customer? becaus…

> what limits do we place on countries randomly being able to make supranational claims like this?

Randomly? EU or other nations act because their citizens have their rights violated. I assume Clearview has collected Dutch faces en masse and thereby violated laws.

Obey by GDPR or don't deal with the data of EU citizens.

Re: Clearview AI faces $45.6M fine in the Netherlands for 'illegal database of faces

#35

Post by CalRobert »

ronsor wrote: post #25
Teever wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really so unreasonable to expect that countries prosecute people who commit crimes against their citizens with expectation of impunity the next time they visit their country? You're proposing an alternative where people can just commit crimes with no recourse from the victims simply because a border exists somewhere and they commit the crimes on one side of the border. Would you expect it to be reasonable for C…

> Would you expect it to be reasonable for Canadian citizens to be shooting at Americans on the border and it unreasonable for American authorities to arrest them if they came to America? Physical violence is incomparable to working at a company that did something that would be illegal in a certain jurisdiction. Should the person maintaining Clearview's website be arrested in the EU simply because they work there?

I'm not sure, but I don't think "I did it from abroad" should just make it OK. The whole point of the GDPR is that personal data is valuable and important. Would you feel the same if Clearview were instead taking people's money?

Re: Clearview AI faces $45.6M fine in the Netherlands for 'illegal database of faces

#36

Post by mike_d »

htrp wrote: post #28

From the actual article: >[Clearview Chief Legal Officer] Mulcaire said in his statement that Clearview doesn't fall under EU data protection regulations. >"Clearview AI does not have a place of business in the Netherlands or the EU, it does not have any customers in the Netherlands or the EU, and does not undertake any activities that would otherwise mean it is subject to the GDPR," he said. ------------- >The Dutch…

Clearview is a perfect example of how to avoid EU-nexus. They don't have any corporate presence, employees, assets, or customers in the EU. They are even careful to only pull photos from US based servers. Because they only do facial matching on photos, they have no idea if someone is or is not an EU citizen.

To seek any sort of judgement or criminal charge against them the EU would need to find an applicable law in the US that covers the activity.

While some people might be upset because GDPR isn't a stick they can use to beat Clearview with, this legal framework is the same that allows you to post material critical of the Chinese government without facing financial penalties or extradition.

Re: Clearview AI faces $45.6M fine in the Netherlands for 'illegal database of faces

#37

Post by stickfigure »

htrp wrote: post #28

From the actual article: >[Clearview Chief Legal Officer] Mulcaire said in his statement that Clearview doesn't fall under EU data protection regulations. >"Clearview AI does not have a place of business in the Netherlands or the EU, it does not have any customers in the Netherlands or the EU, and does not undertake any activities that would otherwise mean it is subject to the GDPR," he said. ------------- >The Dutch…

Do you expect the US government to enforce that judgement?

Re: Clearview AI faces $45.6M fine in the Netherlands for 'illegal database of faces

#38

Post by lacker »

I think one day we will look back on this era, and think it is crazy that so much crime was committed in public and caught on video, and yet the government would usually not be able to take any action. They wouldn't be able to figure out who it was, and they wouldn't be able to find the criminal.

One day all of these things will be taken for granted because we will capture more and more video of public spaces, and AI facial recognition will be more accurate than human facial recognition.

Re: Clearview AI faces $45.6M fine in the Netherlands for 'illegal database of faces

#40

Post by mikae1 »

slg wrote: post #23
piva00 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the problem is that a private company doing it against data privacy regulations in the EU; collecting personally identifiable information and biometrics is regulated through the GDPR, the article clearly states the issue: > The Dutch agency said that building the database and insufficiently informing people whose images appear in the database amounted to serious breaches of the European Union's General Data Prot…

It isn't shocking that an American company would run into issues like this in the EU as it is one of the fundamental differences between American and European society. By and large, Europeans would rather this type of thing be in the hands of the government over a private company while Americans would prefer the reverse.

> By and large, Europeans would rather this type of thing be in the hands of the government over a private company while Americans would prefer the reverse.

Well, you can vote for politicians that align with your values. The American replies: you can vote with your wallet.

I'd like to see a company like Clearview get boycotted away. It has few customers that pays well and the citizens that they subject to violations are not their customers and have no say.

Also, Re: vote with your wallet. The fact that the richest gets the most ballot papers is not so democratic.

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