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India firm shakes up cancer drug market with price cuts

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Re: India firm shakes up cancer drug market with price cuts

#31

Indian pharmaceuticals are a joke. They have zero inventions to their name. Their "secret" to selling drugs cheap lays in the following line from the article. "In 1972, India made only the process for making drugs patentable, not the drugs themselves." Do you really think this is smart? Heavy R&D costs are involved in coming up with compounds that save lives. If you only have the manufacturing process that's patentab…

The article also quotes that this has changed in the last 7 years and adds more subtlety to the issue.

"But in 2005, India brought its law in line with World Trade Organization (WTO) rules recognising 20-year patents, pushing up the prices of newly launched drugs.

Cipla, India’s fourth largest pharmaceutical company by sales, has been pressing the government to allow widespread use of “compulsory licences”, which are permitted under WTO rules.

The licences allow companies to make existing life-saving drugs to sell in countries where they are otherwise priced out of reach."

While product design is important, availability of a strong manufacturing supply chain is also important. India's role in pharma is similar to what China provides for regular manufacturing.

Re: India firm shakes up cancer drug market with price cuts

#32
post #6

Why is Cipla able to produce the drug at a fifth the price? Can someone please explain how Western companies price their drugs? How much do they send on R&D, marketing and all that? I mean it doesn't really make them look good does it? P.S. Being from Africa I can testify to how much of a difference Cipla's 1dollar a day AIDS drugs make a huge difference!! Here in Kenya medication is given free of charge under govern…

From what I have heard from people who work in pharma companies in India, the main reasons drugs are cheaper when manufactured in India are:

- not much R&D costs to design new drugs (however they do spend on designing the manufacturing process) - cheap labor for manufacturing, including a good supply of chemical engineers. - environmental regulations for chemical manufacturing are stricter in Western countries.

Re: India firm shakes up cancer drug market with price cuts

#33
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the US is simply a poor market to launch new drugs into, if it costs that much to get it to market. It might be better to launch in other countries, like India, and then work towards a US launch after extensive use data is available.

Most people are averse to the idea using human beings as guinea pigs, even if they are poor.

Poor people are also averse to dying of AIDS and cancer.

Re: India firm shakes up cancer drug market with price cuts

#34
post #14
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't do much R&D. Most of their drugs are copies of drugs that have been developed in western countries. The drugs are just reverse engineered and reproduced. This is pretty legal under Indian patent law and hence carries on, while Cipla, makes massive amounts of money by being just a drug manufacturer. They do save lives though :P

I meant western companies how much do they send? I once read an article that suggested that even after they've made back the money spent on R&D they still keep their prices high to keep making a profit

As an example, GlaxoSmithKline spends 8.826M GBP/13.8683M USD on marketing/sales and cost of business, and 4.009 GBP/6.2993M USD on research.

Most of them make this publicly available on their financial reports on their websites.

http://www.gsk.com/investors/reps11/GSK-Annual-Report-2011.p... Page 136

Re: India firm shakes up cancer drug market with price cuts

#35

Indian pharmaceuticals are a joke. They have zero inventions to their name. Their "secret" to selling drugs cheap lays in the following line from the article. "In 1972, India made only the process for making drugs patentable, not the drugs themselves." Do you really think this is smart? Heavy R&D costs are involved in coming up with compounds that save lives. If you only have the manufacturing process that's patentab…

>Do you really think this is smart?

Of course it is. This has easily brought India trillions of dollars worth of benefits. Is there any benefit to India at all of paying billions of dollars per year to the United States for.... nothing?

Re: India firm shakes up cancer drug market with price cuts

#36

Indian pharmaceuticals are a joke. They have zero inventions to their name. Their "secret" to selling drugs cheap lays in the following line from the article. "In 1972, India made only the process for making drugs patentable, not the drugs themselves." Do you really think this is smart? Heavy R&D costs are involved in coming up with compounds that save lives. If you only have the manufacturing process that's patentab…

>Do you really think this is smart? Of course it is. This has easily brought India trillions of dollars worth of benefits. Is there any benefit to India at all of paying billions of dollars per year to the United States for.... nothing?

Of course India shouldn't! Why should they? Why would anyone want to pay for something that cost billions of dollars to be discovered now that it is discovered. We should all steal!

Re: India firm shakes up cancer drug market with price cuts

#37
I've lost two People from my Family to Cancer. One a elder cousin sister of mine and another an Uncle. I was in my teens back then when it happened.

There are huge obstacles to getting quality affordable health care in India. Costly drugs is one of them. But costly drugs isn't the problem, the problem is health insurance is an unknown aspect here even now to many ordinary middle class crowd.

In case of my relatives, despite being in a urban city like Bangalore. We had trouble getting right doctors. Both patients, and relatives like us around them are hugely ignorant of what to do in case of big health problems. And this plays to the doctors advantage.

The problem is there is a huge problem of capitation fee here. Students shell out ridiculous sums of money for even entry level MBBS courses. The net result is need to go for higher studies again to get a job in a god hospital or start their own clinic. By the time they do MBBS + Specialization course + Investments on clinics, they only way they can earn back that kind of money is by charging their patients ridiculously.

There a lot of doctors who ask patients to undergo needless tests, even for some very simple things like fever these days. Doctors and Test labs both get commissions for tests they do. Doctors and Pharmacy shops get commissions for selling drugs what the Drug companies ask them to sell. Its like a huge nexus which acts as a burden on our contry's medical spending. So you will see a lot of tests and drugs prescribed for no reason.

I have seen many Pharmacy Shops sell banned drugs. For example only recently did we know that a drug called Rosicon MF is a banned diabetic drug(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosiglitazone), but my mom was taking it even 6 months after the ban. Blame this both on Ignorant doctors and Pharmacy shops. Although by God's grace nothing has happened so far.

Another colleague of mine needs to his wife operated for Avascular Necrosis. It seems doctors here shouted on them when they discovered them doing pre research before the operation. And it turns out the doctors advised them a mode of operation, which requires a lot of post operative expenses, compared to other types which are better. Its things like this. I have myself faced the doctors wrath when they figure I am pre reading something about the disease while trying to help out a relative. Its almost like suffer at our hands or get lost kind of attitude.

Healthcare is like a huge business, where doctors look to maximize their profits by hook or crook. Patients are largely very anxious and ignorant of what is happening to them. Drugs are costly, Every one in the business is out there to make money at without much regard to the patient. Pharmacy shops, surgeons, physicians, specialist, Test Labs its all mad rush for money.

So drugs aren't really the only problem.

Re: India firm shakes up cancer drug market with price cuts

#38
post #3
post #2

The world needs more people like him: in a position of power with the guts to stick it to companies who put money before humanitarianism.

I would also give credit to Indian patent laws that allow people like him to shake things up. "In 1972, India made only the process for making drugs patentable, not the drugs themselves." Compare this to the US where I believe you can patent the active ingredients of a drug, allowing pharmaceuticals to charge more for lifesaving medicine for a longer period of time.

From the article

"But in 2005, India brought its law in line with World Trade Organization (WTO) rules recognising 20-year patents, pushing up the prices of newly launched drugs."

Re: India firm shakes up cancer drug market with price cuts

#39

Indian pharmaceuticals are a joke. They have zero inventions to their name. Their "secret" to selling drugs cheap lays in the following line from the article. "In 1972, India made only the process for making drugs patentable, not the drugs themselves." Do you really think this is smart? Heavy R&D costs are involved in coming up with compounds that save lives. If you only have the manufacturing process that's patentab…

>>I'm an Indian citizen and have the right (luckily) to dissent.

Oh! I am an Indian too.

Cost reduction is innovation too. Its like what Telecommunications companies have done to call rates here. Remember the days when getting a telephone connection required recommendation letters from ministers? These days you can get one for 100 rupees with a address proof in 20 minutes.

Pharmaceutical patents at most act like software patents sooner or later some one discovers them. But to act like 'I discovered first, so pay me eternally or suffer mercilessly and die' attitude will only do damage.

You are also right in the sense that we must incentivize research. But for that we need larger health care reforms especially in the areas of health insurance. Every Indian must have a means of affording health insurance and pay for quality health care. I like Narayana Hrudayalays's schemes in Bangalore, for farmers and alike.

Regarding when that will happen, your guess is as better as mine.

Re: India firm shakes up cancer drug market with price cuts

#40
post #39

Indian pharmaceuticals are a joke. They have zero inventions to their name. Their "secret" to selling drugs cheap lays in the following line from the article. "In 1972, India made only the process for making drugs patentable, not the drugs themselves." Do you really think this is smart? Heavy R&D costs are involved in coming up with compounds that save lives. If you only have the manufacturing process that's patentab…

>>I'm an Indian citizen and have the right (luckily) to dissent. Oh! I am an Indian too. Cost reduction is innovation too. Its like what Telecommunications companies have done to call rates here. Remember the days when getting a telephone connection required recommendation letters from ministers? These days you can get one for 100 rupees with a address proof in 20 minutes. Pharmaceutical patents at most act like soft…

Oh most definitely! I totally agree with making healthcare accesible to all income groups and at the same time cheaper for everyone.

Don't like to copy-paste but in one of my other comments I wrote: ... Debate about models such as free public healthcare, compulsory insurance, compulsory insurance where the government pays the difference that the less wealthy can't make up for, etc... (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4124317)

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