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Monetagium – monetary extortion in feudal Europe

jpkoning.blogspot.com

31–40 of 79 posts

Re: Monetagium – monetary extortion in feudal Europe

#31
post #3

Today's feudal lords plaster you with advertising and enshittification. Paying a ransom fee doesn't help any more.

The internet is today's TV. Did you complain so much about TV ads back in the day too?

(Surveillance is a different thing, and no, advertising isn't the main driver for surveillance. State actors are, and ad tech is just piggybacking on what state actors want to do anyways.)

Re: Monetagium – monetary extortion in feudal Europe

#32
post #23

"democracies have not resorted to modern version of debasement as a revenue source due to the unpopularity of rising prices." The USA got rid of silver in its coins in 1964 and I believe copper in its pennies recently. The modern version of debasement is in the feds balance sheet, they've gotten so efficient there's no need to affect the physical substance.

I’d argue the fed funds rate is also a minor debasement mechanism since they pay interest out of think air on deposits they hold.

Is that not exactly the same? The feudal lords took 100 coins, made 120 coins out of them (while both keeping the same value and claiming that they can make more coins because they have different value), which is basically exactly printing money.

It's an interesting hack where the value of a coin and the cost of a coin (the amount of silver in it) were decoupled, and they pretended that the amount of silver in it is what mattered (hence they kept the same total amount of silver) but actually the value of the coin mattered (because they created value out of thin air by giving you 20 extra coins that were each still worth one pound (or whatever) each).

I don't understand why they didn't just mint a bunch of silver coins of the lower content and spent them themselves, effectively buying coins for 20% less than they were worth. Maybe they didn't have enough silver, or didn't want to create two kinds of the same coin with different silver content each.

Re: Monetagium – monetary extortion in feudal Europe

#34
post #7

"democracies have not resorted to modern version of debasement as a revenue source due to the unpopularity of rising prices." The USA got rid of silver in its coins in 1964 and I believe copper in its pennies recently. The modern version of debasement is in the feds balance sheet, they've gotten so efficient there's no need to affect the physical substance.

Some democracies in the 20th century have tried a form of cash debasement to fight inflation. The example I’m familiar with is from Finland in 1946, when the most popular and largest circulating bills were required to be physically cut in half and lost 50% of their upfront value. The Wikipedia article seems to be only in Finnish: https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setelinvaihto The idea was that the left half of the bill…

That's just such an interesting idea and approach. It's one of those things you'd never think someone would go from ideation to actual implementation, and yet it happened.

Re: Monetagium – monetary extortion in feudal Europe

#35
post #3

Today's feudal lords plaster you with advertising and enshittification. Paying a ransom fee doesn't help any more.

The internet is today's TV. Did you complain so much about TV ads back in the day too? (Surveillance is a different thing, and no, advertising isn't the main driver for surveillance. State actors are, and ad tech is just piggybacking on what state actors want to do anyways.)

To be fair when that was the case (before the Internet with ads) many people were not older than 18yo, so of course they wouldn't be complaining about stuff like that.

But yes, I hated adverts with passion as a child too. I didn't complain about the industry as a whole, I just hated their existence.

Re: Monetagium – monetary extortion in feudal Europe

#36
For those interested, the practice of debasement actually predates the middle ages by, a lot. By 301 inflation was so bad Diocletian had to put out a price fixing edict. It didn't work. It took Constantine's Solidus (basically solid gold coin - that will stay stable for almost a thousand years) to stabilize the currency. By the early fourth century the denarius that used to have 50% silver contained almost no silver at all (something like 1 to 5%).

Re: Monetagium – monetary extortion in feudal Europe

#37
post #3

Today's feudal lords plaster you with advertising and enshittification. Paying a ransom fee doesn't help any more.

The internet is today's TV. Did you complain so much about TV ads back in the day too? (Surveillance is a different thing, and no, advertising isn't the main driver for surveillance. State actors are, and ad tech is just piggybacking on what state actors want to do anyways.)

TVs all used to have an "adblocker" in the form of people just switching away from the channel for whatever time ads last on that channel.

This means that ad companies also had to be wildly creative to make people WANT to watch them.

Re: Monetagium – monetary extortion in feudal Europe

#38
post #3

Today's feudal lords plaster you with advertising and enshittification. Paying a ransom fee doesn't help any more.

The internet is today's TV. Did you complain so much about TV ads back in the day too? (Surveillance is a different thing, and no, advertising isn't the main driver for surveillance. State actors are, and ad tech is just piggybacking on what state actors want to do anyways.)

An American visiting the Netherlands in the 80's was watching TV and asked if we purchased the (American) movie because of a lack of advertisements. When he learned it was just TV he was furious. It had never occurred to him that it wasn't necessary to constantly interrupt movies.

Re: Monetagium – monetary extortion in feudal Europe

#39

Bitcoin fixes this for the first time in human history. I’m excited about a future without monetary debasement. How many wars have been started by the “print more money until it is worthless, oops I have to start a war to fix it” spiral? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debasement

It doesn't in any way fix things. The underlying point of debasement and other schemes outlined in the article was to generate revenue for the government. Now governments use taxes to generate revenue and inflation to encourage circulation. While taxes and inflation are generally unpopular they are also vital to the functioning of society and the economy. BTC and many other token schemes implicitly or explicitly stan…

Coincidentally, inflation (effectively a hidden tax) is also a way for governments to ignore democratic society and divert wealth into pet projects such as unpopular global wars.

There is a reason war bonds aren't sold any more to fund them.

Re: Monetagium – monetary extortion in feudal Europe

#40

[flagged]

How would a wealth tax solve a problem caused government management of interest rates and active management of money supply?

This is likely a problem of the differences in your and my mental models - so let’s start with Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) which I think has huge explanatory power.

So starting with MMT - money is a token granting allocation of a portion of future productivity. Over COVID the UK printed 1 trillion dollars of extra furlough-like cash, the USA something like 10 trillion, the western world as a whole something like 25 trillion.

This was necessary and a Good Thing, but when the nurse or the waitress took the cash, stayed home and paid her rent the landlord got the cash, then his bank got the cash then their shareholders got the dividend and the trillions worked their way up to the richest wealthiest 0.1%

So now while productivity is still the same as it was 4 years ago, the amount of tokens representing that productivity is up by 25 trillion.

This has lead to enormous inflation pressure especially In assets.

So ignoring any other fairness / redistribution issues, MMT says take those tokens out of circulation - the tokens represent the future production of factories and farms - unless those factories got more productive, the amount of money in circulation should not chnage.

So tax the wealth to remove about 25 trillion dollars globally.

Weirdly a stock market crash or a world war would have a similar effect.

But wealth tax seems a much better solution

And then We talk about annual wealth taxes, taxing loans as income, CGT chnages or whatever - the goal is to stop money accumulating in one place for too long - blood circulates around the body - having it stop and gather in the kidneys is bad for the body, and eventually bad for the kidneys

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