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How middlemen are gaming the H-1B program

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Re: How middlemen are gaming the H-1B program

#31

Post by convolvatron »

Dig1t wrote: post #8
downrightmike wrote: post #3

"The outsize role of these (outsourcing/staffing) firms has distorted the H-1B program, which Congress conceived as a way to help American businesses get access to the world’s top talent. Instead, outsourcing and staffing companies bring in applicants with less-remarkable resumes, paying them lower wages and heightening the risk of undercutting American labor. The result is a system that fails US workers, shortchange…

When congress created these laws they just fundamentally misunderstood the astronomical demand there was to enter the country. There is so much financial incentive to bring people in, for laborers, for companies looking to push wages down, and for politicians who stand to gain from additional votes, that any route to do so is bound to be abused any way it possibly can be.

did they? the us has long been a pyramid scheme where immigrants work hard for reduced wages so that their children or children's children can sit comfortably on a pile of workers two generations behind. h1b is just a white collar version.

Re: How middlemen are gaming the H-1B program

#32

Post by bubblethink »

shiroiushi wrote: post #24
bubblethink wrote: post #7

How did the middlemen get so much power in the US economy ? So much of the economy is just middlemen doing bullshit work and seeking rent. Staffing firms, real estate agents, car dealerships, attorneys, healthcare, etc. I don't think other countries have such a big problem with middlemen inserting themselves everywhere and seeking rent. Is there something unique about the US ?

>How did the middlemen get so much power in the US economy? I think it's always been this way. It takes a lot of work and resources to deal with individual customers at scale. >Staffing firms, real estate agents, car dealerships, attorneys, healthcare, etc. Staffing firms, real estate agents, and attorneys are not unique to the US at all. Staffing firms are used by many companies because they don't want to hire full-…

>The thing I see about the US is that it seems to be uniquely bad at actually fixing problems.

Yeah, this is the part I'm trying to understand. There is lobbying/corruption, but that can't be the whole story. Perhaps culturally and historically, the US has been a prosperous high-trust society that did not have to worry too much about people skimming a percentage off the top for providing a service. And over time, that has ballooned into the state we are in now.

The other thing I see is that the executive branch of the government is egregiously bad at implementing any sane designs. There is soviet era levels of dysfunction in the federal government when it comes to employment based immigration.

Re: How middlemen are gaming the H-1B program

#33

Post by listenallyall »

shiroiushi wrote: post #25
listenallyall wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? How could passing multiple new laws (anti-business laws at that), including fundamental changes to legal residency (especially in the current political environment) be done quickly ( tomorrow according to you)?

What he meant is that it could be done quickly if there were political will for it. Obviously, there's no political will for this, so it won't be done.

But this is an example of the most ridiculous ideas floated on HN. Even if every politician agreed there was a problem with the H1-B system, the proposed solution is far from agreeable to everyone. Adding criminal liability? Increasing labor costs ("remove the depressive impacts on salaries")? Making it easier to obtain permanent residency?

One of the reasons HN gets mocked is how dismissive many commenters are about the real-world complexities of various domains. Someone thinking that some wacky proposal he just made up 5 minutes ago is the ultimate solution to longstanding labor constraints and that everyone would automatically agree to it within 24 hours, makes it a joke rather than a basic idea that might have some merit if explored further.

Re: How middlemen are gaming the H-1B program

#34

Post by DebtDeflation »

BobbyJo wrote: post #21
xwolfi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Middlemen are people who spent time specialising in a market and you pay them as guides. You never have to go through them, but you'll get your ass raped. There s nothing wrong about them, they work hard and are not rent seekers (a commission on successful deal is the exact opposite of a rent). Every countries has them (Im French, live in Hong Kong) and what you bemoaned is mundane in my experience.

Car salesmen are guides and we'd get raped without them? Wild take.

Salesmen in general tend to know very little about the products they sell but car salesmen are on entirely different plane - I think they get selected for knowing absolutely nothing about cars and get extra consideration for knowing things that are blatantly false.

Re: How middlemen are gaming the H-1B program

#35

Post by eru »

They should just auction off those visas (and green cards etc) to the highest bidder. (And require the winners to pay cash up front.)

An auction would cut out all the surplus any middle men could earn, and put it in the pockets of the taxpayer. It would also cut out political meddling, and replace it with an incentive to increase revenue.

It would also give an incentive to hand out more visas, to 'make those foreigners pay for our public services' or something like that.

We are doing such a cap-and-auction system for car licenses in Singapore. It works really well. (Our country is small enough that there's a cap of roughly one million cars.)

Re: How middlemen are gaming the H-1B program

#36

Post by eru »

readthenotes1 wrote: post #12
bubblethink wrote: post #7

How did the middlemen get so much power in the US economy ? So much of the economy is just middlemen doing bullshit work and seeking rent. Staffing firms, real estate agents, car dealerships, attorneys, healthcare, etc. I don't think other countries have such a big problem with middlemen inserting themselves everywhere and seeking rent. Is there something unique about the US ?

You have experience in other countries, or is this a grass must be greener on the other side of the fence type comment?

The grass is greener on some other lawns and less green on some.

There are lots of countries run worse than the US, and quite a few run better.

Re: How middlemen are gaming the H-1B program

#37

Post by bubblethink »

listenallyall wrote: post #33
shiroiushi wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What he meant is that it could be done quickly if there were political will for it. Obviously, there's no political will for this, so it won't be done.

But this is an example of the most ridiculous ideas floated on HN. Even if every politician agreed there was a problem with the H1-B system, the proposed solution is far from agreeable to everyone. Adding criminal liability? Increasing labor costs ("remove the depressive impacts on salaries")? Making it easier to obtain permanent residency? One of the reasons HN gets mocked is how dismissive many commenters are about…

I think the parent's point is to move to a free market/merits based system rather than whatever insane lottery system they have. Almost every other country has some type of points/skill/wages type system.

Re: How middlemen are gaming the H-1B program

#38

Post by eru »

BobbyJo wrote: post #21
xwolfi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Middlemen are people who spent time specialising in a market and you pay them as guides. You never have to go through them, but you'll get your ass raped. There s nothing wrong about them, they work hard and are not rent seekers (a commission on successful deal is the exact opposite of a rent). Every countries has them (Im French, live in Hong Kong) and what you bemoaned is mundane in my experience.

Car salesmen are guides and we'd get raped without them? Wild take.

Other countries seem to do just fine without legally requiring them.

Re: How middlemen are gaming the H-1B program

#39

Post by eru »

vsskanth wrote: post #14

Staffing companies are extremely profitable and mostly operate on the edge of the law, exploiting visa workers for maximum profit. Any attempt by USCIS to regulate staffing agencies use of H1B has been fought tooth and nail by armies of lawyers. With the fall of Chevron, I don't think there is a way out of this without legislative changes. The other side of the coin is the extremely arbitrary and capricious nature of…

> Staffing companies are extremely profitable and mostly operate on the edge of the law, exploiting visa workers for maximum profit. Any attempt by USCIS to regulate staffing agencies use of H1B has been fought tooth and nail by armies of lawyers.

That seems weird. Why would they be extremely profitable? Are there big barriers to entry?

Without barriers to entry, you would expect the profits of staffing companies to be competed away. (Just to be clear: you wouldn't expect workers to be less exploited. That's a feature of the visa system and their relative lack of other opportunities, not a function of the staffing companies.)

If there are so profitable, why isn't everyone and their mom starting staffing companies?

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