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Robot dentist performs first human procedure

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Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#31

Post by pessimizer »

nerdjon wrote: post #19

Its cool tech, don't get me wrong. But maybe, before we remove any amount of comfort with another human being we look at wether all of the dental practices are actually backed by science (which there is some scruitiny over). But also going to the dentist already isn't exactly pleasant, the pokes, scrapes, drill noises, etc. Maybe we improve that first before sticking it in a robot? People already have a ton of anxiet…

I'm not bothered by any of these concerns, none of them are more important than cheap dental care because bad teeth and gums are agony that may lead to heart disease or cancers. The only thing I'm concerned about other than costs are failsafes. If the thing (or rather the 20th generation of the thing) can be absolutely guaranteed not to cause a disaster in someone's mouth (it should panic on the most minor confusion), and is cheaper than dentists (not hard) it should be made standard.

If somebody needs a dentist to hold their hand, they can go to a fancy clinic that has some sort of doula. But normal people used to get their dentistry done by the same guy who would cut their hair.

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#32

Post by wrs »

Mistletoe wrote: post #2

I’m simply too old and seen too many BSOD to ever allow this to be done on me. Also I just watched the Fallout episode with the Mr. Handy in it. The picture in the article of the robot hand moving a drill into his mouth fills me with intense dread. Maybe the younger generation would feel differently. I didn’t let my Tesla drive either.

At least this is actual CNC software using math and geometry that somebody can find the bugs in. What terrifies me is “software” that is really just black boxes filled with floating point numbers and no one knows how it works, or when it won’t.

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#34

Post by 15155 »

whimsicalism wrote: post #4

It’s going to become increasingly apparent in the US over time the degree to which doctors & the regulatory state are blocking us from getting cheap new care. Already ML algos are more accurate at diagnosing melanomas from an image than dermatologists - but we will never get that tech because doctors are fiercely protective of their salaries and have captured the arm of the state to help them do so.

> doctors are fiercely protective of their salaries

A freshly-minted dermatologist isn't making that much, though they will be in the long term. As a whole, physicians aren't very organized to deal with these types of technological "invaders." The AMA and similar organizations' core competencies have traditionally been limiting supply and creating personnel exclusivity (limiting residency slots, limiting the usefulness of foreign-obtained credentials, etc.)

I promise you can find an endless supply of freshly-minted dermatologists who will sign off on these ML-identified melanomas, bypassing the old guard with their rubber stamp. Once the tech is proven, that rubber stamp is worth nothing and may be removed. It's just too easy to chip away at these types of schemes where "assistance" can be rendered to a licensed professional and eventually completely relied upon.

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#35

Post by rscho »

whimsicalism wrote: post #4

It’s going to become increasingly apparent in the US over time the degree to which doctors & the regulatory state are blocking us from getting cheap new care. Already ML algos are more accurate at diagnosing melanomas from an image than dermatologists - but we will never get that tech because doctors are fiercely protective of their salaries and have captured the arm of the state to help them do so.

Being a doc, I can confidently tell you you are totally incorrect as to why things happen the way they do in healthcare. That won't surprise you, I guess. I long tried to make outsiders, and especially tech people, understand what our job is, but discussions always lead to the same stereotypes.

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#36

Post by nerdjon »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #25
nerdjon wrote: post #19

Its cool tech, don't get me wrong. But maybe, before we remove any amount of comfort with another human being we look at wether all of the dental practices are actually backed by science (which there is some scruitiny over). But also going to the dentist already isn't exactly pleasant, the pokes, scrapes, drill noises, etc. Maybe we improve that first before sticking it in a robot? People already have a ton of anxiet…

>But also going to the dentist already isn't exactly pleasant, the pokes, scrapes, drill noises, etc. Maybe we improve that first before sticking it in a robot? Dentists are definitely trying. The drills have gotten smaller and gentler, my dentist (and many others) offers a headset so you can listen to music/podcasts while getting your cleaning, and overall they make an effort to be less scoldy and more encouragey. T…

> and overall they make an effort to be less scoldy and more encouragey.

Oh, 100%. Yeah there has for sure been progress. I do also recognize that my anxiety is not just "oh I don't like the dentist", I was lied too. That breaks that trust.

I remember before I found my current dentist, I was having a ton of pain and I tried to find someone. I called them, explained the situation, explained the anxiety and where it was coming from. They reassured me, we have someone who knows how to help with that.

I went there, the dentist came in, I again explained the anxiety and where it came from. This was meant to be a, get comfortable thing. It wasn't a cleaning, just talking. He decides the entire time that he was feeling around my mouth with his fingers, he would hold the scraping tool inches from my face. And then, right at the end to purposefully do a quick little scrape as if, its not big deal see its not that bad.

I just got through telling you I was lied too, that is not the time to do something without telling me that you said you were not going to do to try to convince me that "its not that bad". And then he was like, yeah so we have time if you want to get a cleaning. I have not wanted to get up and leave as quick as I had in that situation in my life, never went back...

That is a rant, sorry about that. But that moment is burned into my brain.

I was so thankful to find my current dentist. When I told them, the dentist called me while I was at home to talk to me in my space that I am comfortable in. Then when I got there I just sat in the chair for a while talking, not laying back, my feet were at the side.

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#37

Post by rscho »

15155 wrote: post #34
whimsicalism wrote: post #4

It’s going to become increasingly apparent in the US over time the degree to which doctors & the regulatory state are blocking us from getting cheap new care. Already ML algos are more accurate at diagnosing melanomas from an image than dermatologists - but we will never get that tech because doctors are fiercely protective of their salaries and have captured the arm of the state to help them do so.

> doctors are fiercely protective of their salaries A freshly-minted dermatologist isn't making that much, though they will be in the long term. As a whole, physicians aren't very organized to deal with these types of technological "invaders." The AMA and similar organizations' core competencies have traditionally been limiting supply and creating personnel exclusivity (limiting residency slots, limiting the usefulne…

So, why hasn't it been done yet ?? (I'm a doc, BTW)

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#38

Post by theGnuMe »

whimsicalism wrote: post #4

It’s going to become increasingly apparent in the US over time the degree to which doctors & the regulatory state are blocking us from getting cheap new care. Already ML algos are more accurate at diagnosing melanomas from an image than dermatologists - but we will never get that tech because doctors are fiercely protective of their salaries and have captured the arm of the state to help them do so.

State licensing weeds out the cranks. But these AIs could go for FDA approval and direct to consumer. So I don't think doctors are the limiting reagent here in your example. If these AIs are good, they will reduce demand for dermatologists as some enterprising doctor will offer it as a service that scales.

While I think doctors are paid handsomely and there are critical shortages, I don't think regulatory licensing requirements per se limit access to new and cheaper care.

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#39

Post by rscho »

BenFranklin100 wrote: post #26
whimsicalism wrote: post #4

It’s going to become increasingly apparent in the US over time the degree to which doctors & the regulatory state are blocking us from getting cheap new care. Already ML algos are more accurate at diagnosing melanomas from an image than dermatologists - but we will never get that tech because doctors are fiercely protective of their salaries and have captured the arm of the state to help them do so.

The medical establishment also artificially limits the number of doctors in order to keep salaries high. I live in Boston, arguably the top city for medical care in the US, and it is not uncommon to have a six month waiting list to see a specialist. People talk about prescription drugs being the cause of high medical costs in the US, but it’s really the hospitals and doctors that are driving the majority of the costs…

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't think places like Boston are where docs earn the most ?

Re: Robot dentist performs first human procedure

#40

Post by nerdjon »

pessimizer wrote: post #31
nerdjon wrote: post #19

Its cool tech, don't get me wrong. But maybe, before we remove any amount of comfort with another human being we look at wether all of the dental practices are actually backed by science (which there is some scruitiny over). But also going to the dentist already isn't exactly pleasant, the pokes, scrapes, drill noises, etc. Maybe we improve that first before sticking it in a robot? People already have a ton of anxiet…

I'm not bothered by any of these concerns, none of them are more important than cheap dental care because bad teeth and gums are agony that may lead to heart disease or cancers. The only thing I'm concerned about other than costs are failsafes. If the thing (or rather the 20th generation of the thing) can be absolutely guaranteed not to cause a disaster in someone's mouth (it should panic on the most minor confusion)…

> I'm not bothered by any of these concerns, none of them are more important than cheap dental care.

Is there really any indication that this will make any change to the cost of dental care? Is the dentists the problem or is it the other parts? There still has to be someone there to manage it.

Also this machine will not be cheap either, will require maintenance, etc. From what I have seen most robot operated medical things, are not to replace jobs but for precision that humans just can't do. Or to reduce human error.

> But normal people used to get their dentistry done by the same guy who would cut their hair.

I would strongly advise against saying "normal" when dental anxiety is very much a thing for many people. I would likely even say most people have some sort of dental anxiety.

There is a reason that a lot of people don't get their regular cleanings, and I am sure cost is part of that but not all of it.

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