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Yes, there are more driverless Waymos in S.F

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Re: Yes, there are more driverless Waymos in S.F

#31
post #9
post #3

I wonder how far they are from profitability on a cost per ride basis. The biggest long term risk to self driving cars is probably that number being unreachable. The super expensive base vehicles don't help either. They need lidar hats for the Kia Forte or whatever

Replacing ~minimum wage drivers in conventional cars with expensive cars backed by expensive software developers and operations staffs is almost certainly not a business model. There may be (probably will be) a business model behind autonomous driving technology in some undefined future. But there's no guarantee Waymo won't be another killed by Google in the interim. The thought from a decade ago that the average tee…

Could the hardware price come down with scale, or is it inherently expensive?

If the former, I think a viable model could be to eventually start selling the hardware (along with ongoing software updates, cloud services, maintenance, etc.). Let individuals across the world buy self-driving cars and run them as small businesses through whatever rideshare services they want in whatever locations they want. If there's a way, people will make the economics work. Over time, autonomous vehicle operators could eventually price human drivers out of the market on Uber and Lyft.

I see the current phrase of centrally managing all this as essentially a public beta test. Once the tech is proven and the regulatory environment is mature, the situation will change drastically. The Waymo app/network would no longer be needed at that point, unless it happened to become a big enough cash cow to be worth keeping around.

Re: Yes, there are more driverless Waymos in S.F

#32
post #31
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replacing ~minimum wage drivers in conventional cars with expensive cars backed by expensive software developers and operations staffs is almost certainly not a business model. There may be (probably will be) a business model behind autonomous driving technology in some undefined future. But there's no guarantee Waymo won't be another killed by Google in the interim. The thought from a decade ago that the average tee…

Could the hardware price come down with scale, or is it inherently expensive? If the former, I think a viable model could be to eventually start selling the hardware (along with ongoing software updates, cloud services, maintenance, etc.). Let individuals across the world buy self-driving cars and run them as small businesses through whatever rideshare services they want in whatever locations they want. If there's a…

Presumably the incremental cost comes down over time and selling the tech to car manufacturers could become an interesting business. (I'm skeptical it would be a direct to consumer business.) I assume that is how it will play out but it will probably be over a fairly long time horizon.

I'm also skeptical that the "let others use your car when you're not" ever becomes a major model.

Re: Yes, there are more driverless Waymos in S.F

#33
post #32
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could the hardware price come down with scale, or is it inherently expensive? If the former, I think a viable model could be to eventually start selling the hardware (along with ongoing software updates, cloud services, maintenance, etc.). Let individuals across the world buy self-driving cars and run them as small businesses through whatever rideshare services they want in whatever locations they want. If there's a…

Presumably the incremental cost comes down over time and selling the tech to car manufacturers could become an interesting business. (I'm skeptical it would be a direct to consumer business.) I assume that is how it will play out but it will probably be over a fairly long time horizon. I'm also skeptical that the "let others use your car when you're not" ever becomes a major model.

That's a good point, agreed, I don't think Waymo would need to be the vendor of the actual vehicle. It makes more sense that existing manufacturers would sell "Waymo Inside" models that include their tech, and then services like Uber and Lyft would build integrations on Waymo's SDK to be able to manage such vehicles on behalf of the owners.

Re: Yes, there are more driverless Waymos in S.F

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was the last time you had an Uber driver that actually lived in San Francisco? Most of the drivers I talk to were driving in, from as far away as San Diego.

Doubtful. I've done that car trip multiple times, it's a 7-9 hour drive.

Yeah, it was extraordinarily far, which is why I remember the conversation. But he drove up to SF and slept in his car for the weekend because the trips were a lot more valuable here.

Re: Yes, there are more driverless Waymos in S.F

#35
Waymo isn't going to revolutionize transportation until it costs less than an Uber or Lyft. Right now it's just a novell way for high salaried folks to get around or to show off when family is in town. In my experience it's been 25-50% costlier than the competition.

Sure, there are a lot of engineers to pay, but the same applies to Uber and Lyft.

Re: Yes, there are more driverless Waymos in S.F

#36

Waymo isn't going to revolutionize transportation until it costs less than an Uber or Lyft. Right now it's just a novell way for high salaried folks to get around or to show off when family is in town. In my experience it's been 25-50% costlier than the competition. Sure, there are a lot of engineers to pay, but the same applies to Uber and Lyft.

Since Uber and Lyft make no money it's not a reasonable comparison, they are only cheap because they are financed by VC money. Uber and Lyft only exists today because there's an expectation that in a not so distant future they'll be able to replace all their pesky drivers that demand compensation and benefits for Waymos.

Re: Yes, there are more driverless Waymos in S.F

#37

Waymo isn't going to revolutionize transportation until it costs less than an Uber or Lyft. Right now it's just a novell way for high salaried folks to get around or to show off when family is in town. In my experience it's been 25-50% costlier than the competition. Sure, there are a lot of engineers to pay, but the same applies to Uber and Lyft.

My recent experiences puts them at +$4-8 the cost, so similar price after tip. The biggest limiting factor for me is service range and +20% ride times

Re: Yes, there are more driverless Waymos in S.F

#38
post #36

Waymo isn't going to revolutionize transportation until it costs less than an Uber or Lyft. Right now it's just a novell way for high salaried folks to get around or to show off when family is in town. In my experience it's been 25-50% costlier than the competition. Sure, there are a lot of engineers to pay, but the same applies to Uber and Lyft.

Since Uber and Lyft make no money it's not a reasonable comparison, they are only cheap because they are financed by VC money. Uber and Lyft only exists today because there's an expectation that in a not so distant future they'll be able to replace all their pesky drivers that demand compensation and benefits for Waymos.

Uber is significantly profitable.

Re: Yes, there are more driverless Waymos in S.F

#39
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replacing ~minimum wage drivers in conventional cars with expensive cars backed by expensive software developers and operations staffs is almost certainly not a business model. There may be (probably will be) a business model behind autonomous driving technology in some undefined future. But there's no guarantee Waymo won't be another killed by Google in the interim. The thought from a decade ago that the average tee…

If there were a fleet of a million Waymo cars, 2,000 support staff, and 2,000 engineers keeping a stable technology running, and vehicle wear and tear was low (possibly lower than a human driver running an ICE car ragged)...it could work. But they're going to be unprofitable for a long, long time.

Uber itself has 30,000 employees and 7M drivers and is highly profitable. Waymo could support a lot more staff than you suggest and be profitable.

Re: Yes, there are more driverless Waymos in S.F

#40

I rode my first Waymo last weekend. It's _significantly_ better than an Uber. You get an almost 'white-glove' experience getting inside. Then, you have complete privacy. I could get work done in the car guilt-free. I was very surprised with the experience

Odd that you felt you had complete privacy. I would imagine you are monitored six ways to Sunday.
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