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James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

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Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#31
post #25

Ironic to see paper publishing of radical state analytics: those papers demanded a highly structured state exist, to allow complex modern phototypesetting and distribution systems to exist, and the underpinnings of mechanical, electrical and computational engineering which make it possible to mass produce books. In order to document the state, it is necessary to at least partially exist inside the state. In order to…

mass production of books originally in china was with the blessing of the state. mass production of books in europe, centuries later, started in the places with the weakest states and often over the protest of those states

i feel like the fundamental discoveries of radio, information theory, error correction coding, automata theory, language theory, type theory, mathematical logic, instruction set design, compiler optimization, etc., which form a much better medium for distribution of books than hot lead ever could, are fundamentally not that dependent on states and mass production. yes, there is a huge difference between the billion-transistor chip i'm running this browser on and the 3500-transistor cpu in a commodore 64. but the commodore was already a weapon of mass instruction, as anyone who used commodore bbses in the 80s knows

if states collapsed, would we still be able to make computers? i suspect we would, though we'd have to do a lot of innovation to adapt to the radical new environment

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#32
Review / summary of

  - seeing like a state: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-like-a-state/
  - the art of not being governed: https://www.thepsmiths.com/p/review-the-art-of-not-being-governed
both worth reading if you have the time.

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#33

Review / summary of - seeing like a state: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-like-a-state/ - the art of not being governed: https://www.thepsmiths.com/p/review-the-art-of-not-being-governed both worth reading if you have the time.

Clickable: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-lik..., https://www.thepsmiths.com/p/review-the-art-of-not-being-gov...

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#34
post #25

Ironic to see paper publishing of radical state analytics: those papers demanded a highly structured state exist, to allow complex modern phototypesetting and distribution systems to exist, and the underpinnings of mechanical, electrical and computational engineering which make it possible to mass produce books. In order to document the state, it is necessary to at least partially exist inside the state. In order to…

You are the guy in the well in this comic: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-som...

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#35

The concepts in Seeing Like A State are very relevant to programmers and to anyone trying to “change the world” with technology. One of the main points is that for a state to manage many people it tends to use power (hard and soft) to homogenize the populace. My belief is that tech necessarily does the same thing. Everyone in your app has permissions defined by some enum, a limited number of actions available, conten…

Both the state and corporations want to homogenize the population. The state wants a homogeneous population because it make it easier to obtain desired election outcomes and desired amount of power if people can be manipulated as large groups towards a limited subset of parties/options. The politician who promises "I will lower tax for the middle class by 1%" won't stand a chance if their opponent promises "I will co…

As Ellul put it in Propaganda,

> Mass production requires mass consumption, but there cannot be mass consumption without widespread identical views as to what the necessities of life are. One must be sure the market will react rapidly and massively to a given proposal or suggestion. One therefore needs fundamental psychological unity on which advertising can play with certainty when manipulating public opinion.

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#36
post #28

"Seeing Like A State" is a superb book, but I'll always remember Scott for "The Art of Not Being Governed." I was a history major in college, and seeing history from the point of view of non-state peoples was revelatory for a young student. I greatly enjoyed it, truly one of those experiences in life where my mind was opened and expanded in a new direction. I'll forever remember him for that, and be grateful for his…

Seeing like a State sadly has some badly written chapters, including some of those not written by him. This makes the book quite a tedious read overall, alternating between deep analysis and highschool level history refresh. The Art of noy being governed is better in this regard.

Interesting, do you have a source of the chapters not written by him?

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#37
post #26
post #12

Sad news. Highly recommend his "Against the Grain: A Deep History of the Earliest States".

This was a great book. It seems less well-known in the HN-sphere than Seeing Like A State, but it's at least as good IMHO. It really changed my mental model of the dynamics of early states and "barbarians", and how agriculture interplayed with the story of how it all unfolded. My one criticism was that when answering the question "why did people start eating grains", he never seemed to consider that it could simply b…

I like that theory, its like how people today can't stop eating junk food even though they know its bad for them :) Maybe it was a plot by Uruk's Big-Ag pushing subsidized barley porridge on the masses and hijacking their gut-brain axis so they left their epicurean utopia in the marshes.

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#38
post #37
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a great book. It seems less well-known in the HN-sphere than Seeing Like A State, but it's at least as good IMHO. It really changed my mental model of the dynamics of early states and "barbarians", and how agriculture interplayed with the story of how it all unfolded. My one criticism was that when answering the question "why did people start eating grains", he never seemed to consider that it could simply b…

I like that theory, its like how people today can't stop eating junk food even though they know its bad for them :) Maybe it was a plot by Uruk's Big-Ag pushing subsidized barley porridge on the masses and hijacking their gut-brain axis so they left their epicurean utopia in the marshes.

Now that I think about it a little more, that general idea fits into Scott's framework of the how the constraints of cultivation, specifically that what we cultivate domesticates us in turn.

Specifically grain being so calorie dense and pleasurable that we end up becoming beholden to its growth, with significant cost. Look at all the ideas permeating these days about dangers of high carb diets, this book [1] suggesting they make us stupid for example. Or about the link between metabolic disfunction and mental disorders [2]

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17333302-grain-brain?fro...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjEFo3a1AnI

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diversity in [the featuresets of] software systems has led to reduced security. The only systems without the “rails” to keep the user on-track and out of danger zones are those that provide the user with the ability to program it themselves. Must it be this way? Can we provide the complexity of flexibility while protecting our users’ finances and other important information? I don’t know if we can, but our track reco…

> Diversity in [the featuresets of] software systems has led to reduced security citation needed. one anecdote that comes to mind, the gnu build system had an odd assortment of machines. when they were hacked (very targeted attack) they only noticed because the malware crashed on a R6000 mips cpu or something.

I think anyone in the industry would agree that at some point, the increase in exposed surface area provided by the addition of features (and the complexity to support them) has indeed decreased security at least once in the history of software. My statement doesn't say that it always leads to reduced security.

I would, however, posit that it's pretty darn close to "always."

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diversity in [the featuresets of] software systems has led to reduced security. The only systems without the “rails” to keep the user on-track and out of danger zones are those that provide the user with the ability to program it themselves. Must it be this way? Can we provide the complexity of flexibility while protecting our users’ finances and other important information? I don’t know if we can, but our track reco…

In the context of my comment you’re thinking very small. Yes, providing more options for users can make an application less secure. But that force to make it secure is the very force I’m describing which locks down people’s options, their ability to self-express, and their options to create personal and societal value out of their actions. Every choice a programmer makes about how to model the world is a choice that…

> In the context of my comment you’re thinking very small.

I am sorry that you failed to acknowledge how my comment is applicable at scale.

> [T]hat force to make it secure is the very force I’m describing which locks down people’s options, their ability to self-express, and their options to create personal and societal value out of their actions.

Yes. You see how it applies. The initial attack was uncalled for.

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