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Making Elizabethan plays understandable and fun to read

elizabethandrama.org

31–40 of 169 posts

Re: Making Elizabethan plays understandable and fun to read

#31
post #13

The well-known linguist John McWhorter argues that Shakespeare's plays should be translated into modern English since they are written in a language that we effectively no longer speak. "Indeed, the irony today is that the Russians, the French and other people in foreign countries possess Shakespeare to a much greater extent than we do, for the simple reason that unlike us, they get to enjoy Shakespeare in the langua…

Shakespeare is modern English. Linguists describe it as "Early Modern English". It's contemporaneous with the King James Bible, which is still widely read, without translation.

The difficulty with Shakespeare isn't that it's in Elizabethan English, but that it's in poetry. The Russians and French have strong poetic cultures. They enjoy reading poetry, and the challenge of writing it, including translation. That just doesn't exist in Anglophone cultures.

But Shakespeare wasn't meant to be read. It was meant to be performed, and a native speaker watching a good performance has no need of translation. The emotions and flow of the story are clear. They may not understand each and every word, but that's often true of even the latest movies. (The dialogue is often mixed in a way that makes it hard to understand -- by the director's choice.)

I regularly perform Shakespeare for audiences who have never seen it before, and I never translate a word of it. I generally edit it to make it move more briskly than Elizabethan audiences wanted, but the only time I'll change a word is to make the pronouns match the actors I cast (and not even always then).

Shakespeare's stories are rarely worth preserving for their own sake. The stories themselves are dated -- not the words, but the culture. There's no "translation" that will make Claudio not an asshole for the way he treats Hero, or make Hero not look pitiful for taking him back.

Shakespeare's plays in modern words are always flat, dull, and penitential. If you're going to modernize the language, modernize the whole thing -- go see the delightful "Ten Things I Hate About You" or the magical "West Side Story".

Re: Making Elizabethan plays understandable and fun to read

#32
post #13

The well-known linguist John McWhorter argues that Shakespeare's plays should be translated into modern English since they are written in a language that we effectively no longer speak. "Indeed, the irony today is that the Russians, the French and other people in foreign countries possess Shakespeare to a much greater extent than we do, for the simple reason that unlike us, they get to enjoy Shakespeare in the langua…

Shakespeare's plays should be translated into modern English I've been running through the works of Shakespeare translated into modern English[0]. The original text is next to the new stuff and annotations are present when translations are weird or questionable. I'd highly recommend this for anyone who wants to read his stuff but doesn't have the time to look up every third word. https://www.litcharts.com/shakesclear…

I always thought that I should do the translation myself to current colloquial English, for my own better understanding.

I didn't know about that link, thanks! Anyone know if there is a printed version that is similar? And, extending that request to other classic works too?

Re: Making Elizabethan plays understandable and fun to read

#33
post #24
post #13

The well-known linguist John McWhorter argues that Shakespeare's plays should be translated into modern English since they are written in a language that we effectively no longer speak. "Indeed, the irony today is that the Russians, the French and other people in foreign countries possess Shakespeare to a much greater extent than we do, for the simple reason that unlike us, they get to enjoy Shakespeare in the langua…

Shakespeare’s plays are already in modern English

In terms of the words they use sure but the grammar/sentence construction is quite different and hard to parse for modern readers. That's their point the translations make decisions to make the language more understandable for their target audience so it's more accessible to them in some ways than it is to English speaking audiences who are usually expected to read it in the original without modification.

Re: Making Elizabethan plays understandable and fun to read

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was the same as you. Now I think I didn't care enough about it to put in the effort.

This definitely describes me as well. I'm not sure how much effort it would actually take. I never managed to gain so much as a foothold on anything. So I guess I have some idea of a lower bound. But probably, I would not consider it to be worth the effort. It's interesting to me thinking back on high school from decades ago. I remember so few of the details. But I distinctly remember trying and failing to read Shake…

I think it is possible. Rather than reading it for yourself, why not get other people to read the lines out to you? And maybe even "act out" the story?

Obviously it would be expensive to get it done just for you but if you could spread the cost among a larger audience it might be feasible. Get them to record it and you could even watch it on TV! ;)

Re: Making Elizabethan plays understandable and fun to read

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, he's wrong, and that's why there are so few "modern English" productions put on. And also why Shakespeare plays in the original language continue to live. When you see it performed live, you still get the gist. The language is still beautiful. That's the point. More to the point, the audiences would not increase at all if they were translated into modern terms. On the other hand, no one in the theater minds if…

Shakespeare is best appreciated in the original pronunciation (OP). I'm a little disappointed that OP Shakespeare continues to be a little niche, given that it's necessary for many of the rhymes and puns. Personally, I think it just sounds better than received pronunciation (RP). I think that's one of the strongest arguments against modernizing the language. Shakespeare has a flow, and much verse, that is lost in any…

Shakespeare definitely doesn't need to be done in RP. It's no closer to Elizabethan English than American is.

I've seen OP performances. They don't especially move me, but I think it's because so much effort is spent on the accent. The audience does adjust to it rather quickly, but it still requires a lot of heavy lifting to make any Shakespeare play accessible to modern sensibilities. (Pacing, culture, references, etc.)

I personally find that Shakespeare can sound remarkable in just about any modern accent. I love hearing it in accents that aren't entirely common: Yorkshire, Geordie, American South, Black English Vernacular. I once got to perform with a British woman with Ghanian parents, and whose native accent was Estuary -- absolutely a knockout.

Re: Making Elizabethan plays understandable and fun to read

#36
post #31
post #13

The well-known linguist John McWhorter argues that Shakespeare's plays should be translated into modern English since they are written in a language that we effectively no longer speak. "Indeed, the irony today is that the Russians, the French and other people in foreign countries possess Shakespeare to a much greater extent than we do, for the simple reason that unlike us, they get to enjoy Shakespeare in the langua…

Shakespeare is modern English. Linguists describe it as "Early Modern English". It's contemporaneous with the King James Bible, which is still widely read, without translation. The difficulty with Shakespeare isn't that it's in Elizabethan English, but that it's in poetry. The Russians and French have strong poetic cultures. They enjoy reading poetry, and the challenge of writing it, including translation. That just…

Yes I find most people who find Shakespeare incomprehensible suddenly find it clear and simple once they read it aloud

Re: Making Elizabethan plays understandable and fun to read

#37
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shakespeare's plays should be translated into modern English I've been running through the works of Shakespeare translated into modern English[0]. The original text is next to the new stuff and annotations are present when translations are weird or questionable. I'd highly recommend this for anyone who wants to read his stuff but doesn't have the time to look up every third word. https://www.litcharts.com/shakesclear…

I always thought that I should do the translation myself to current colloquial English, for my own better understanding. I didn't know about that link, thanks! Anyone know if there is a printed version that is similar? And, extending that request to other classic works too?

https://www.sparknotes.com/shakespeare/?scr=1

SparkNotes has a clearer and more printable version but is behind a paywall.

Re: Making Elizabethan plays understandable and fun to read

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was the same as you. Now I think I didn't care enough about it to put in the effort.

This definitely describes me as well. I'm not sure how much effort it would actually take. I never managed to gain so much as a foothold on anything. So I guess I have some idea of a lower bound. But probably, I would not consider it to be worth the effort. It's interesting to me thinking back on high school from decades ago. I remember so few of the details. But I distinctly remember trying and failing to read Shake…

Did either of you ever try watching e.g. Titus?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_(film)

It's not considered one of his great plays. I enjoyed the film, sought out a solo copy of the play, which I managed to slog through. That was years ago; I don't really remember it. Still revisit the film though.

Re: Making Elizabethan plays understandable and fun to read

#39
post #13

The well-known linguist John McWhorter argues that Shakespeare's plays should be translated into modern English since they are written in a language that we effectively no longer speak. "Indeed, the irony today is that the Russians, the French and other people in foreign countries possess Shakespeare to a much greater extent than we do, for the simple reason that unlike us, they get to enjoy Shakespeare in the langua…

I don’t think many have read your link. It’s great. Some lines from King Lear:

The best and soundest of his time hath been but rash; then must we look to receive from his age, not alone the imperfections of long-engraffed condition, but therewithal the unruly waywardness that infirm and choleric years bring with them.

Regan replies:

Such unconstant starts are we like to have from him as this of Kent’s banishment.

Goneril continues:

There is further compliment of leave-taking between France and him. Pray you, let’s hit together.

The commentary on these lines is delightful!

Re: Making Elizabethan plays understandable and fun to read

#40
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and that's why there are so few "modern English" productions put on Modern productions of shakespeare or even victorian era stories constantly make their way into Hollywood. "Clueless" is just a modernized version of "Emma"

This is reductive. Clueless is certainly not "just" a modernised version of Emma. It takes broad strokes inspiration from the plot of Emma, but the charm of the film isn't something that can be reduced to the original novel. The application of a comedy of manners onto the contemporary setting, combining broad farce with naturalistic performances, skewering (while also benefiting from) consumer fetishism etc. The poin…

Bowdlerize as a verb literally came from Thomas Bowdler gutting Shakespeare

Ophelia was randy AF if you study her verses closer especially the "mad scene" (act 4, scene 5)

Shakespeare wrote for the groundlings

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