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I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

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Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#31

Post by piva00 »

adastra22 wrote: post #28
whartung wrote: post #25

Every time I take a stab at a web gui app, I’m daunted. The toolkits, the apparently billions of dependencies, the vastly complicated build processes. I tried again recently. HTML file and a separate JS file. Some SVG elements with a click handler. I had mouse in and mouse out logic, and that worked great. But for some reason the click handler did not. I tried it in Safari, Chrome, and Firefox. It worked in Firefox.…

Developers like you and I are a dying breed. We remember writing applications for operating systems that had straightforward APIs, and OS developers that worked hard to ensure any app which used those APIs would not break. Most "full-stack" developers I know that write web apps have literally never written a line of C++ in their life, let alone written a rich text editor using an object oriented desktop GUI API. They…

But C++ hurts, a lot. My first foray into C++ was trying to write exactly a GUI app for Win32 back on Windows 98, it hurt, a lot.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#32

Post by ffsm8 »

adastra22 wrote: post #28
whartung wrote: post #25

Every time I take a stab at a web gui app, I’m daunted. The toolkits, the apparently billions of dependencies, the vastly complicated build processes. I tried again recently. HTML file and a separate JS file. Some SVG elements with a click handler. I had mouse in and mouse out logic, and that worked great. But for some reason the click handler did not. I tried it in Safari, Chrome, and Firefox. It worked in Firefox.…

Developers like you and I are a dying breed. We remember writing applications for operating systems that had straightforward APIs, and OS developers that worked hard to ensure any app which used those APIs would not break. Most "full-stack" developers I know that write web apps have literally never written a line of C++ in their life, let alone written a rich text editor using an object oriented desktop GUI API. They…

I wish they were a dying breed, but no, you're not.

You're just looking at the past with extremely rose tinted glasses.

It's way,way easier to implement a UI like in the 90s with hmtl5. You're just trying to make a modern UI with all it's bells in whistles and now complain how complicated it is.

The tech ain't any more complicated. The software you're imagining has a waaaay more complicated UI then what you did in the 90s

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#33

Post by lukan »

whartung wrote: post #25

Every time I take a stab at a web gui app, I’m daunted. The toolkits, the apparently billions of dependencies, the vastly complicated build processes. I tried again recently. HTML file and a separate JS file. Some SVG elements with a click handler. I had mouse in and mouse out logic, and that worked great. But for some reason the click handler did not. I tried it in Safari, Chrome, and Firefox. It worked in Firefox.…

"Cross browser Hell. It’s supposed to be a sandbox only to find out the cat got there first."

Hm, it is really not that bad anymore. Only if you target bleeding edge features, you will usually have issues. But a mouse click handler? I never managed to not have that working. Also I like vanilla JS. Web Apps can be really simple, if you avoid the bloat.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#34

Post by tjoff »

I feel like the author generalise too much. His points are valid for one app. I'm not surprised that the web version works better for him, given what kind of app it is, target audience etc. But he writes it as if he is dismissing desktop apps entirely which is way to drastic from this one example.

The most surprising thing is that that this was in 2009. Web apps was not common back then.

I have one big gripe with this:

> Don’t treat your newbies like you treat your power-users. You have a database. It records all their actions since the dawn of time. Use it. I have a couple very simple heuristics for “is probably still getting used to the software” and, if you are, the software treats you with kid gloves. For example, it hides complex, seldom used options by default.

First of all, your heuristics are most certainly broken. Hiding options is infuriating, if you are trying to evaluate the software you get the wrong idea of what is possible.

If you've used it before but started a new account you suddenly don't feel at home. If you are following a guide or recommendation they suddenly don't work. If you read the documentation I truly hope it is very clear that a feature might be hidden and what to do to enable it.

If you even consider the above make it very clear that you are in a simpler mode and make it easy to switch.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#35

Post by Twisell »

Would be interesting though to repeat this analysis today because the rise of AppStores considerably simplified the shareware model for those who use them (while they have huge drawbacks too).

1. Land on the site by searching

2. Click on the preferred/compatible AppStore link

3. Optional step for tech savy users : Read commitments and review to check if something is dubious

4. Use the app for X weeks of trying period or until a fremium limitation is reached

5. Pay in one click when you choose or when a popup remind you that you must pay to lift some limitations

That 4/5 steps instead of the 17 described by the OP, and that's probably the true value of AppStores for Developers. (Are margins fair? that's up for debate! But it's unfair to ignore the added value)

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#36

Post by swiftcoder »

BuildTheWorld wrote: post #9

Now that websites can use the File System Access API to load and save files, the Desktop is "solved" for me. Everybody can use my software simply by opening the url in their browser. The new challenge is phones. Mobile browsers do not support the File System Access API. What is a solution to this? Is there a reputable service that converts a web page into an Android/iOS app so that it can load and save files?

> Mobile browsers do not support the File System Access API

Unfortunately Safari on Desktop also doesn't support the File System Access API. Ditto for WebUSB, WebBluetooth, WebMIDI, etc. Whole classes of "desktop-lite" web apps that can only be shipped on Chrome.

It's kind of a hard sell to ship a web app that just doesn't work for normal users who bought a MacBook.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#37

Post by webprofusion »

It depends :)

If your app does something on the users local machine (or a server) and cannot just exist in a browser then there is room for a desktop app.

You can run a local web server on a high port and connect to that as the web UI but not that many apps get away with that approach.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#38

Post by [deleted] »

jpnc wrote: post #11
BuildTheWorld wrote: post #9

Now that websites can use the File System Access API to load and save files, the Desktop is "solved" for me. Everybody can use my software simply by opening the url in their browser. The new challenge is phones. Mobile browsers do not support the File System Access API. What is a solution to this? Is there a reputable service that converts a web page into an Android/iOS app so that it can load and save files?

One thing I'm missing is pkcs11 API in browsers. This seems to not make sense to US devs from what I could see but if you're in EU you can probably commiserate.

[deleted]

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#39

Post by cm2187 »

Also, from a end user point of view, unless you are downloading from a known and reputable software company, you assume the exe contains spyware and viruses by default. That has been the main reason for me to download desktop apps sparingly.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#40

Post by nhinck2 »

whartung wrote: post #25

Every time I take a stab at a web gui app, I’m daunted. The toolkits, the apparently billions of dependencies, the vastly complicated build processes. I tried again recently. HTML file and a separate JS file. Some SVG elements with a click handler. I had mouse in and mouse out logic, and that worked great. But for some reason the click handler did not. I tried it in Safari, Chrome, and Firefox. It worked in Firefox.…

I really can't imagine what you did to make basic functionality so difficult to achieve.

Even as someone who prefers making desktop apps, making Web apps should not be comparatively harder.

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