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Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

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Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#31

Post by justinclift »

Seems an extremely soft ball approach:

• Under the deal, Boeing agreed to pay a $243.6 million fine and for an third-party monitor to be installed to monitor the company’s compliance.

~$240M seems pretty low for an industry where billions are commonly thrown about.

• The deal spares Boeing from a trial just as the planemaker is trying to turn a corner in its safety and manufacturing crises.

Sparing them from a trial means no further discovery/uncovering of other illegal shit they've been up to meanwhile?

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#32

Post by MangoCoffee »

supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

The U.S. is not going to shut down Boeing. How many jobs would be lost if that happened, especially in this economy?

The fine is quite low.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#33

Post by cwassert »

supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

Change the system.

A blind focus on the concentration of wealth will only improve tech if it helps profit, will only improve lifes if it helps profit, will only protect the environment if it helps profit, will only influence politics to increase profits. It will try to create poverty because that eases exploitation. As you already hinted, the motivation has to change.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#34

Post by TulliusCicero »

supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

You could also just send a lot of people to jail.

One of the problems here is that a lot of the time, the worst thing that happens to an individual from the company is just that they get fired. That's just not a very strong deterrent when the upside if you don't get caught is potentially huge raises/promotions/bonuses.

Imagine if the worst thing that could happen to you when robbing banks if you get caught is just that you can't rob banks in that area anymore. That's kind of how this works for individuals in corporations.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#35

Post by HeatrayEnjoyer »

justinclift wrote: post #30
KingOfCoders wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The convicted felon in the White House next year will make sure his fellow felons get what they want.

If such a convicted felon were to pardon themselves, would they be a convicted felon any more?

The president can only pardon federal crimes.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#36

Post by constantcrying »

supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard, so you have to go against the corporation itself.

Punishing a corporation is easy, but the government hates doing it for obvious reasons. It means ruining something which is useful to you and punishing tens of thousands of completely innocent people, with inevitable layoffs.

What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture, as that was the real root cause for the MAX disasters, but that is impossible to enforce, you can't even really verify that it has happened.

I also think people don't understand how extremely lucky Boeing is. If all of this had happened during a time of low demand the company would be facing a far more dire situation, likely with many major airlines canceling orders. But since airplane demand is very high and order books are full, airlines have to keep their orders at Boeing if they want new planes.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#37

Post by iSnow »

supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

You have to get the leadership by the balls. The CEO isn't going to change a company's culture alone, but she has leverage and connections. If they know they face prison if the company plays foul in a major way, they will put pressure on their deputies to change culture.

Also, fines that go up to say 10% of global revenue. That ensures that even activist shareholders take note and do not pressure the CEO to cut corners.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#38

Post by constantcrying »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #34
supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

You could also just send a lot of people to jail. One of the problems here is that a lot of the time, the worst thing that happens to an individual from the company is just that they get fired. That's just not a very strong deterrent when the upside if you don't get caught is potentially huge raises/promotions/bonuses. Imagine if the worst thing that could happen to you when robbing banks if you get caught is just th…

Proving something like criminal negligence is extremely hard.

The supply chain of software in aerospace is extremely long and finding out who exactly was acting negligent is near impossible.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#40

Post by carlmr »

omerhac wrote: post #21

"We plead guilty for our poor test coverage"

It's more than test coverage though. Their spec had the same glaring error. It's a design, management agreement, spec, review failure. The tester could have said something because they realized the design is bullshit, but by that time no competent testers hired by Boeing any more, it was all outsourced to the cheapest bidder.
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