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London, Paris, Seoul Show Commuting Power of Fast Regional Rail

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Re: London, Paris, Seoul Show Commuting Power of Fast Regional Rail

#31

Post by dkdbejwi383 »

88 wrote: post #20

Odd to see the Elizabeth Line (Crossrail) presented in such a positive light. As an engineering project Crossrail became famous for being repeatedly delayed (eventually opening four years late) and many billions over budget. Since opening the Elizabeth Line has been beset by high numbers of service cancellations and poor punctuality (usually blamed on having to share track outside the central tunnel section with othe…

Only complaint I have is that it's already so popular that trains are absolutely packed!

Re: London, Paris, Seoul Show Commuting Power of Fast Regional Rail

#32

Post by jltsiren »

Nesco wrote: post #19
kylegalbraith wrote: post #9

This was a great read. As an American who is currently living in France, I'm always blown away by how easy it is for me to get just about anywhere via train.

America is way less dense than France and Europe at large. Only in BoWash such an high density network would make sense

Almost 2/3 of Americans live in states with population density comparable to Europe. The real issue is that the density is too uniform to make rail a viable form of transportation. If you take a major American city and the surrounding suburbs and drop it in Europe, it will likely cover several cities, their suburbs, and rural land between the cities.

Re: London, Paris, Seoul Show Commuting Power of Fast Regional Rail

#33

Post by jajko »

teractiveodular wrote: post #2

This article really needs to mention Japan, who pioneered and perfected the idea and its smooth integration into the subway network. It's common in Tokyo for a train to start as a limited express that travels long distances at speed, then transition into an all-stops subway, tunnel through Tokyo, and then morph back into an express for the long haul out. Some trains on the Toyoko Line do this twice: express, subway i…

Well, not sure if exactly this but it sounds like what I am occasionally using to commute to Geneva, Switzerland. Regional train, traveling up to 120kmh (trains have same speed limits as cars here apparently), then enters the Geneva and stops in like 6 places in its newly-built 'subway' (it doesn't have a lot of stops, but then again Geneva is tiny compared to megacities mentioned).

I mean it covers all the stops there are in the city, of which with single line in small city there aren't that many. And then goes to neighboring France, and on the way back picks up french commuters coming daily for (much better paid) work.

There are no dedicated subway trains per se that I am aware of, just this. Helps me a lot to get close to my workplace, although drawback of this is long stops, I guess due to being proper big double decker swiss train and overall a massive behemoth.

Re: London, Paris, Seoul Show Commuting Power of Fast Regional Rail

#34

Post by tialaramex »

mjg59 wrote: post #27

It feels odd to talk about the US without bringing up BART, which has comparable characteristics to the Elizabeth Line (the yellow line is over 60 miles long, for instance, and headway through the core area is under 5 minutes at peak).

Where is this "Under 5 minutes at peak" ? I see about 6tph scheduled on BART's busiest line at rush hour. The Elizabeth Line's core runs 24tph which is what I'd consider an actual metro service - No reason to schedule my arrival, normal operating fluctuations dominate attempts to get there in a timely fashion so just rock up and board the next train.

Re: London, Paris, Seoul Show Commuting Power of Fast Regional Rail

#35

Post by jmalicki »

tialaramex wrote: post #34
mjg59 wrote: post #27

It feels odd to talk about the US without bringing up BART, which has comparable characteristics to the Elizabeth Line (the yellow line is over 60 miles long, for instance, and headway through the core area is under 5 minutes at peak).

Where is this "Under 5 minutes at peak" ? I see about 6tph scheduled on BART's busiest line at rush hour. The Elizabeth Line's core runs 24tph which is what I'd consider an actual metro service - No reason to schedule my arrival, normal operating fluctuations dominate attempts to get there in a timely fashion so just rock up and board the next train.

"headway through the core area"

The core area of West Oakland, SF, and Daly City has service from all lines, so it's the sum of tph of all lines.

Of course, that does not help you at all for commuting outside the core area - which is where the length comes into play. The GP wasn't wrong, just disingenuous.

Re: London, Paris, Seoul Show Commuting Power of Fast Regional Rail

#36

Post by teractiveodular »

rwmj wrote: post #7
teractiveodular wrote: post #2

This article really needs to mention Japan, who pioneered and perfected the idea and its smooth integration into the subway network. It's common in Tokyo for a train to start as a limited express that travels long distances at speed, then transition into an all-stops subway, tunnel through Tokyo, and then morph back into an express for the long haul out. Some trains on the Toyoko Line do this twice: express, subway i…

If only they'd give them sensible names so I could remember whether a Commuter Rapid is faster than a Special Rapid or a Limited Express. (Maybe it makes more sense in Japanese)

The Japanese order is pretty consistent: futsu (Regular) < junkyu (Semi-Express) < kyuko (Express) < kaisoku (Rapid) < tokkyu (Limited Express) < chotokkyu (Superexpress, better known as Shinkansen/bullet train). It's the random branded Nantoka Liners that throw me off.

Re: London, Paris, Seoul Show Commuting Power of Fast Regional Rail

#37

Post by TheAlchemist »

zefr0g wrote: post #6
phh wrote: post #3

> Trains arrive as often as every three minutes during peak hours along the central spines of both the Elizabeth Line and the RER Line A. I've taken the RER A everyday for few years (both and after automation), and that frequency combined with its size still puts me in awe. My usual connection with RER A, I arrive at the middle of the train platform, and my next connection is at the end of the train. Statistically I…

Took it for a few years too, I think the frequency can be as much as every 90 seconds.

Not sure about RER, but if my memory is good, during RATP strikes in 2019, the automated line 1 was running every 60 seconds or so.

Paris has such a good public transport system, and now also cycling infrastructure, that something like 50% of young adults (<30y) don't even have a driving license !

Re: London, Paris, Seoul Show Commuting Power of Fast Regional Rail

#38

Post by avianlyric »

mjg59 wrote: post #27

It feels odd to talk about the US without bringing up BART, which has comparable characteristics to the Elizabeth Line (the yellow line is over 60 miles long, for instance, and headway through the core area is under 5 minutes at peak).

BART and the Lizzie line aren’t even vaguely comparable.

The Lizzie line is just one line in London. The closest comparable line on the BART system is the yellow line.

The Yellow line seems to operate a maximum of 5 trains/hour, over a distance of 62 miles, at a max speed of 70mph, and still uses a fixed block system.

The Lizzie line in comparison operates 24 trains/hour in its central core, has a total distance of 73miles, a max speed of 90mph, and operates an almost fully automated moving block system in its central core (that how it can achieve 24tph).

The two systems aren’t even in the same league when it comes to capacity, speed or capability.

Re: London, Paris, Seoul Show Commuting Power of Fast Regional Rail

#39

Post by twic »

tialaramex wrote: post #28
sofixa wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't this describe the Metropolitan line in London, which is the first one? And that's not how the Parisian RER works - they have very few stops in the city of Paris itself, to prioritise long distance travel and make it faster (somewhat as a reaction to how unsuited the Paris metro, which has a ridiculously dense stop network, is for long distances).

The TFL service, the actual Metropolitan Line, only goes from London to Amersham. It used to go to Aylesbury, which is at least a moderate sized town, but it hasn't since electrification last century. Amersham is a 13th century market town. It's not tiny, but it's certainly not a city. Now, there are mainline services running on the same physical rails which do move passengers between London and other cities, but tho…

The Elizabeth line doesn't run a particularly fast long-distance service - it stops at all stations [1] between Reading and London.

If you wanted to go from Reading to somewhere in central London, it would be faster to take a non-stop express which terminates at the edge of central London and then change onto the Elizabeth line than to take it all the way. The service to Reading is more about providing a local service between Reading and its surrounding small towns.

[1] except Iver

Re: London, Paris, Seoul Show Commuting Power of Fast Regional Rail

#40

Post by avianlyric »

jmalicki wrote: post #35
tialaramex wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is this "Under 5 minutes at peak" ? I see about 6tph scheduled on BART's busiest line at rush hour. The Elizabeth Line's core runs 24tph which is what I'd consider an actual metro service - No reason to schedule my arrival, normal operating fluctuations dominate attempts to get there in a timely fashion so just rock up and board the next train.

"headway through the core area" The core area of West Oakland, SF, and Daly City has service from all lines, so it's the sum of tph of all lines. Of course, that does not help you at all for commuting outside the core area - which is where the length comes into play. The GP wasn't wrong, just disingenuous.

If you’re going to take that view, then you need to be comparing the BART system to the entire London Metro system (The Tube, overground, Lizzie line, and suburban rail). There are many services that run parallel to the Lizzie line in central London. But they don’t share track, because that’s a terrible way to operate a metro service.

If you take that approach, then BART looks like a toy compared to its equivalent in London.

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