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DevOps Isn't Dead, but It's Not in Great Health Either

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Re: DevOps Isn't Dead, but It's Not in Great Health Either

#31

Post by fifilura »

dspillett wrote: post #30
surfingdino wrote: post #6

I like DevOps, I don't like being on call 24x7 so I tell my clients I am a software developer not an ops. DevOps was sold as a way to avoid dev and ops teams blaming each other for not shipping software. It was at the time true that devs did not understand hardware and networking and ops did not particularly understand software. We got nice things like Docker and k8s, but the core issues have not gone away, devs don'…

> ops are an almost extinct species. This is infuriating at times. We ingest a lot of data from 3rd party systems of our clients for things like KPI analysis, the devs¹ provided various APIs for submitting data and we can read from various others, but good old reliable dumping-CSV-files-to-us-via-SFTP is still what most clients want to do. I have no problem with this², BUT the amount of times I end up talking to clie…

Would it be possible for you to take a step back and describe the problem you are infuriated by again?

Re: DevOps Isn't Dead, but It's Not in Great Health Either

#32

Post by kuekacang »

dspillett wrote: post #30
surfingdino wrote: post #6

I like DevOps, I don't like being on call 24x7 so I tell my clients I am a software developer not an ops. DevOps was sold as a way to avoid dev and ops teams blaming each other for not shipping software. It was at the time true that devs did not understand hardware and networking and ops did not particularly understand software. We got nice things like Docker and k8s, but the core issues have not gone away, devs don'…

> ops are an almost extinct species. This is infuriating at times. We ingest a lot of data from 3rd party systems of our clients for things like KPI analysis, the devs¹ provided various APIs for submitting data and we can read from various others, but good old reliable dumping-CSV-files-to-us-via-SFTP is still what most clients want to do. I have no problem with this², BUT the amount of times I end up talking to clie…

sftp? That's too modern. We had 3 or 4 vendors that only do ftp via vpn. Also ops and and networking/vpn is on different departments.

> [1] am currently heading to a similar path

Re: DevOps Isn't Dead, but It's Not in Great Health Either

#33

Post by immibis »

pojzon wrote: post #13
ngc248 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, dunno what to call it ... but every new concept starts out good, gets crazier and crazier and sometimes it may become good again, but most of the time it just devolves into more crazy. In one of the orgs I worked, ther was a team which worked on the basic devops framework which the application teams could use to then configure their resources. It was a very sane approach.

Nah, it works like this: - we get a new methodology by remarkable ppl who can make it work really well - some managers/consultants decide to modify it, twist it, with reasoning that „its hard to do well” - the initial thing is lost in translation, twisted and bent to sell better by consultants or fit nonfunctional corps Agile, DevOps, Software Craftsmanship, testing methodologies all did share the same fate. Issue is…

Disagree on point 2. It goes straight from successful for one team, to lost in translation. It's not managers' fault that it gets lost- it's just what happens when teams try to adopt something that worked well for one team, without the implicit context.

Re: DevOps Isn't Dead, but It's Not in Great Health Either

#34

Post by vladvasiliu »

dspillett wrote: post #30
surfingdino wrote: post #6

I like DevOps, I don't like being on call 24x7 so I tell my clients I am a software developer not an ops. DevOps was sold as a way to avoid dev and ops teams blaming each other for not shipping software. It was at the time true that devs did not understand hardware and networking and ops did not particularly understand software. We got nice things like Docker and k8s, but the core issues have not gone away, devs don'…

> ops are an almost extinct species. This is infuriating at times. We ingest a lot of data from 3rd party systems of our clients for things like KPI analysis, the devs¹ provided various APIs for submitting data and we can read from various others, but good old reliable dumping-CSV-files-to-us-via-SFTP is still what most clients want to do. I have no problem with this², BUT the amount of times I end up talking to clie…

> clients (sometimes large banking organisations) that don't have anyone available who actually understands SFTP/SSH

Oh man, I've lost track of the number of times I was infuriated by this. I especially love the guys pretending to take security seriously only to show up with some obsolete ssh config that doesn't work out of the box on modern systems.

Re: DevOps Isn't Dead, but It's Not in Great Health Either

#35

Post by bricss »

ngc248 wrote: post #10
chgs wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, agile is simply People over process Results over bluster Flexibility over rigidity

Management just slaps agile onto everything nowadays. No time given for coming up with better solution, reducing tech debt. Most companies devolving into feature factories now. I call this methodology FRAGILE®

I call it WAGILE® aka waterfall+agile, blended with a pinch of spikes :D

Re: DevOps Isn't Dead, but It's Not in Great Health Either

#36

Post by redserk »

zmmmmm wrote: post #17
ibash wrote: post #5

Performance in the report is defined by how fast you can make a change to production, and how fast you can restore service. That’s fine I guess. What’s not taken into account is the time wasted on incidental complexity with devops tools. For example a highly competent engineer I know is burning hours trying to get ssl working on k8s/gcp with a specific configuration. Conceptually ssl is all straightforward, but there…

hitting this paradox a lot with containerisation. Spent a good bit of effort building everything into a fully containerised stack, thinking once we got through the hard parts of it, everyone would be more productive and new devs would get up to speed fast. But it's not like that. We just have a whole different set of complexities, mainly at all the container boundaries where ports, volumes, user ids, file permissions…

I can’t speak to your experience, but often times I’ve run into this in development teams where there was not a strong level of systems knowledge or not a very strong understanding of exactly what an application needs to run.

Perhaps one of the more amusing issues I’ve seen was someone’s surprise that a temp directory creation put the files in /tmp instead of the application’s working directory. It’s not something a lot of people would think about in development/testing I suppose.

More often than not, containerization has seemed to force developers to better understand the impacts of their code on the system.

Re: DevOps Isn't Dead, but It's Not in Great Health Either

#37

Post by jiggawatts »

dspillett wrote: post #30
surfingdino wrote: post #6

I like DevOps, I don't like being on call 24x7 so I tell my clients I am a software developer not an ops. DevOps was sold as a way to avoid dev and ops teams blaming each other for not shipping software. It was at the time true that devs did not understand hardware and networking and ops did not particularly understand software. We got nice things like Docker and k8s, but the core issues have not gone away, devs don'…

> ops are an almost extinct species. This is infuriating at times. We ingest a lot of data from 3rd party systems of our clients for things like KPI analysis, the devs¹ provided various APIs for submitting data and we can read from various others, but good old reliable dumping-CSV-files-to-us-via-SFTP is still what most clients want to do. I have no problem with this², BUT the amount of times I end up talking to clie…

Why even use SFTP?

Just have them upload blobs to S3 or Azure Storage.

The security is better and both are serverless solutions that cost basically nothing at normal scale.

I seriously don’t understand why people in 2024 insist in reproducing these core services but badly and at great expense.

PS: Azure Storage is multi-protocol and supports SFTP! https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/storage/blobs/secure...

Re: DevOps Isn't Dead, but It's Not in Great Health Either

#38

Post by bregma »

chgs wrote: post #7
gustavus wrote: post #2

DevOps like Agile was a beautiful idea with a coherent underlying well reasoned philosophy. DevOps like Agile was then hacked to pieces and had its corpse paraded around by sleazy consultants and idiotic management that was told "you can save all this money on all your infrastructure people by making your developers do all the ops stuff to." And who doesn't like saving money on those useless crusty old system adminis…

To me, agile is simply People over process Results over bluster Flexibility over rigidity

Cowboys who can shoot with both hands. Got it.

Re: DevOps Isn't Dead, but It's Not in Great Health Either

#39

Post by KronisLV »

jiggawatts wrote: post #37
dspillett wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ops are an almost extinct species. This is infuriating at times. We ingest a lot of data from 3rd party systems of our clients for things like KPI analysis, the devs¹ provided various APIs for submitting data and we can read from various others, but good old reliable dumping-CSV-files-to-us-via-SFTP is still what most clients want to do. I have no problem with this², BUT the amount of times I end up talking to clie…

Why even use SFTP? Just have them upload blobs to S3 or Azure Storage. The security is better and both are serverless solutions that cost basically nothing at normal scale. I seriously don’t understand why people in 2024 insist in reproducing these core services but badly and at great expense. PS: Azure Storage is multi-protocol and supports SFTP! https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/storage/blobs/secure...

> Just have them upload blobs to S3 or Azure Storage.

Not everyone can store their data in cloud services, most likely.

That said, self-hosted S3 compatible solutions like MinIO might be a good choice: https://github.com/minio/minio or maybe SeaweedFS for something with a more permissive license: https://github.com/seaweedfs/seaweedfs

Re: DevOps Isn't Dead, but It's Not in Great Health Either

#40

Post by threatofrain »

surfingdino wrote: post #6

I like DevOps, I don't like being on call 24x7 so I tell my clients I am a software developer not an ops. DevOps was sold as a way to avoid dev and ops teams blaming each other for not shipping software. It was at the time true that devs did not understand hardware and networking and ops did not particularly understand software. We got nice things like Docker and k8s, but the core issues have not gone away, devs don'…

DevOps is dying? As in the job market for DevOps is actually shrinking?
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