I would really like to see a universal retrofit replacement for the big brand motors. Shimano are particularly hostile to repair and I'm loathe to give them thousands of dollars to replace a motor just because they deliberately made it unservicable.
DJI announces an electric mountain bike drive system
31–40 of 60 posts
Re: DJI announces an electric mountain bike drive system
#32slightly OT, but I was surprised that Riese & Müller seems to have moved from Bosch to Pinion on their latest models. seems like more and more players popping up.
I think adding Pinion, doubt they are dropping Bosch. Pinion has potentially a superior platform in that you have a fully integrated motor and gearbox, but this is a new item in the market. Bosch with Rholoff[0] is extremely well known as a platform, has high reliability and excellent efficiency across a wide shift range.
As a Bosch+Rholoff owner and a Pinion C.12 owner... I'd _loved_ it if R&M were doing Pinion in their cargo line. If something happens to your rear wheel you have to rebuild around your Rholoff. This might be hard to do on a tour compared to buying a new wheel if you had a Pinion. This assumes that your motor and electronics are not at risk of failing, which may be only reasonable if you're using Bosch...
I'm happy to see Pinion being picked up by R&M. I'd assume this is an excellent sign for Pinion as R&M's _schtick_ seems to be the customer experience (e.g. performance and reliability). This obviously signals that they are in some reasonable partnership to support this configuration for a long time. It would have been really nice to see Pinion offered in at-least one of their cargo platform though.
We just got a Load4 and I noticed that the Bosch+Rholoff dual battery configuration lagged in availability pretty significantly behind the other configurations. I presume this probably made R&M product management a bit irritated as the products form Bosch seem to be announced about a year before things are available. Anecdotally I believe I received 725wh batteries on my order when there is open discussion about how these batteries are not even in production by Bosch anymore as they've moved on to a higher density. Seems like with Bosch there is a big lag between announcement of a market disrupting product and when integrators get it on platform. Pinion may be faster?
Above there is a comment about Bosch being a ripoff (e.g. high margins), certainly it is but they are likely the only company you can build a product off unless you're going into race to the bottom price range. Propel has an interesting post [1] about going Bosch only. Now there are major providers in Germany also providing solutions: Pinion, ZF. I believe propel also started a thing called bloom [2][3] where I bet the "after sales support" portion of starting an e-Bike business is often times a discussion of why Bosch is safe.
[0]: https://www.rohloff.de/en/products/speedhub
[1]: https://propelbikes.com/bosch-only/
Re: DJI announces an electric mountain bike drive system
#33> The integrated DJI Avinox electric power assist system leverages DJI's cutting-edge technologies in both software and hardware design, offering 850 W of peak power (250 W nominal power) in an ultra-light body of 19.2kg This is most unimpressive. I have an 2019 3000w LunaCycle e-mountain bike (based on the Giant Anthem) with similar drive system weight specs, which includes the ginormous 40ah battery. Why can't DJI…
Legal limit in USA is 750 watts, legal limit in UK is 250 watts. Competition on power output is illegal. I have a BBSHD which can be trivially programmed to 1500w output (likely the same as your Luna cycle without a custom controller) and it’s great. It is widely regarded that there is no enforcement of power limits, but manufacturers can’t really advertise illegal power limits for sale. Many high power ebike enthusi…
> Many high power ebike enthusiasts (for example “High Voltage DIY Electric Bikes” channel on YouTube) argue that these low legal power limits actually make e-bikes less safe, as you need a good 2-3kw to actually ride with the flow of traffic. At US or worse UK power limits, you don’t get enough of a boost for that and you’re more likely to get hit from behind.
Those "High power ebike enthusiasts" are actually "small electric motorcycle" enthusiasts.
The point of the regulations is to keep the power levels within the range of what's expected for a bike.
I'm fine with a separate class of regulations allowing higher power, but only if those vehicles are easily disallowed from bike trails. If the goal is to ride around with cars in traffic all day, it shouldn't be a problem to be banned from bike trails. There's a real problem of overpowered DIY or hacked e-bikes tearing up trails everywhere and getting out of control.
3kw is 4 horsepower. It's more than even the world record for peak human power output and far more than any human can sustain.
I think it's cool that people build these high power machines, but let's be honest about what they are: Electric motorcycles, not bikes.
Re: DJI announces an electric mountain bike drive system
#34I don't know that I see anything revolutionary? The peak power seems maybe higher than Bosch CX at 850W vs 600 but continuous power is similar 250W. 800Wh max battery pack size is also not entirely out of the ordinary. The packaging seems nice, the battery seems quite slim and integrate well into ordinary-looking downtube on the Amflow bike - but don't see much otherwise. Weight seems on the high side.
> The peak power seems maybe higher than Bosch CX at 850W vs 600 but continuous power is similar 250W. 800Wh max battery pack size is also not entirely out of the ordinary.
e-bike power is limited by regulations. If they created a higher power system, it wouldn't be allowed to be called an e-bike. 250W continuous is the limit, and therefore the target.
Battery pack size is a weight versus range tradeoff. Again, not going to see much difference from competitors.
The difference would come from the efficiency, the GaN fast charging (mentioned in the article), the control unit, the display, the app, and other features.
Hardcore DIYers will turn their nose up at the other features and try to turn this into a specifications races, but people who don't want to DIY and fiddle with things all the time will appreciate the cohesive package.
Re: DJI announces an electric mountain bike drive system
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
More than 250W continuous is pointless in many countries because that's the limit for the most common e-bike class (i.e. even if the system can do more, you'd want to de-rate it to 250W). Bosch makes excellent motors, but they're ripping people off on accessories (a dumb charger costs 89 EUR in the "compact" variant that can do 2A or around 80W and weighs 600g, needing over 10 hours to charge a large battery), and en…
I assume price would be the major factor. Also, as someone who knows nothing about e-bikes, but who knows "DJI makes good cheap drones and gimbals", they'd be pretty high on my list of "probably makes an ok product" without searching.
I'd trust their intent to create a good product (rather than aiming for something that will look good enough for just long enough to get you to buy it), their general manufacturing, and even engineering, but with the forces and water/dirt involved, I am not confident they'll succeed in the first few iterations.
Re: DJI announces an electric mountain bike drive system
#36This is great for the e-bike sector - more competition, more innovation, more options. There is of course a bunch of poo-pooing in an HN thread. The problem with the e-bike sector is a misalignment: what people say they want: a cargo bike, a fixie, a mountain bike, a folding bike, a... etc. what people actually want: a moped that is emotionally and aesthetically a bicycle The audience for a moped that is emotionally…
Not to snipe but there does seem to be (as of this year) some folks doing cargo (e.g. longtail) with Bosch for USD ~4K.
The entire sector needs disruptive pricing on reliable sub-components. What it's been getting is disruptive pricing with unreliable products that fail silently/annoyingly (e.g. firmware) or catastrophically (e.g. fire).
Re: DJI announces an electric mountain bike drive system
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actual trail riders mostly do not do this. Source: worked at a bike store. People with a lot of money that treat their bike as something to optimize and not something to ride do this. I'm not saying its wrong, its just another way of being a bike enthusiast, but this type rarely overlaps with serious riders. Training improves performance, not $3000 wheels that shave off 50 grams.
At least in the pacific northwest, mounting biking isn't just about riding the bike any more than owning a motorcycle is just about riding a motorcycle. It's a culture or talking about and bragging about bike tech. Weight is bragging rights for mountain bikes as "aero" is for road bikes. Lots of people will pay to have the better toy. The running joke is that many bikes are worth more than the cars that bring them to…
I think your confusing regular mountain biking with ebikes. The people bragging about bike tech will most likely be looking down at people that ride ebikes on the trail.
Re: DJI announces an electric mountain bike drive system
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is that a legal bike in your jurisdiction? In California you're riding an unregistered moped, illegally, most likely. I suspect DJI is aiming for legal bikes that established bicycle manufacturers can sell.
The point is, if DJI's system is lower power, shouldn't it be significantly lighter?
Not necessarily.
Large portions of the casual bike segment don’t care about weight - other than lifting it on and off their bike rack.
Re: DJI announces an electric mountain bike drive system
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
Legal limit in USA is 750 watts, legal limit in UK is 250 watts. Competition on power output is illegal. I have a BBSHD which can be trivially programmed to 1500w output (likely the same as your Luna cycle without a custom controller) and it’s great. It is widely regarded that there is no enforcement of power limits, but manufacturers can’t really advertise illegal power limits for sale. Many high power ebike enthusi…
> Many high power ebike enthusiasts (for example “High Voltage DIY Electric Bikes” channel on YouTube) argue that these low legal power limits actually make e-bikes less safe, as you need a good 2-3kw to actually ride with the flow of traffic. At US or worse UK power limits, you don’t get enough of a boost for that and you’re more likely to get hit from behind. Those "High power ebike enthusiasts" are actually "small…
3kW I assume?
Re: DJI announces an electric mountain bike drive system
#4020kg? Actual trail riders spend hundreds to thousands shaving grams off their bikes. I think this is just another attempt to break e-bikes away from being a distinct product, to keep the "e" an optional upgrade to whatever bike the customer already owns.
While in amateur, I’ve been mountain biking a long, long time.
Nobody cares about grams on a mountain bike. The environment you’re riding in is so hostile that you really can’t tell the difference.