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Gassy cows and pigs will face a carbon tax in Denmark, a world first

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Re: Gassy cows and pigs will face a carbon tax in Denmark, a world first

#31

Post by jacobgorm »

idrathernot wrote: post #26

So now they’ll just import the meat from places with even less environmental concern. Not that it matters as the people who support these types of broad punitive measures are mostly just virtue seeking idiots who only care about complex issues to the extent it can be used to advertise their own feelings of moral superiority.

Most meat produced by Danish farmers gets exported to countries like China. Only a small fraction gets consumed by Danes in Denmark. The pigs are transported alive to meat packing plants in Germany and Poland where wages are lower, and most farm hands in Denmark are cheap imported labor who often live under slave live conditions.

Re: Gassy cows and pigs will face a carbon tax in Denmark, a world first

#32

Post by Rebelgecko »

atlasy1 wrote: post #16
kasperni wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Farming contributes to a third of Denmark’s CO2 emission.

We can phrase anything in a negative light. Food which fuels 100% of Denmark’s population causes only 33% of Denmark’s emissions. This is a wonderful achievement.

What makes that wonderful? What do you think the #s would look like if Denmark wasn't one of the top pork exporting countries?

Re: Gassy cows and pigs will face a carbon tax in Denmark, a world first

#33

Post by jacobgorm »

tengbretson wrote: post #21
jhbadger wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so insane given that they are far more numerous due to agriculture than they would be as wild animals. This ultimately is a human-caused problem not a natural one. And there is the issue that what we feed livestock affects how much gas they produce. It's a serious research topic https://clear.ucdavis.edu/explainers/why-do-cattle-produce-m...

The us cattle inventory is like 80 million or so head, and the peak wild bison population was estimated to be between 30-60 million, so its more, but not a crazy amount more.

Denmark produces around 29mio pigs per annum on a tiny k look and area inhabited by less than 6mio humans.

Re: Gassy cows and pigs will face a carbon tax in Denmark, a world first

#34

Post by peterbraden »

jacobgorm wrote: post #30
peterbraden wrote: post #28

Are there any reliable numbers on the holistic impact of ruminants? All of the carbon they emit came from the atmosphere via their plant diets, and a huge volume of that carbon is sequestered in the soil via their excrement. Ruminants help the soil, as opposed to modern agriculture which is largely reliant on fossil fuel derived fertilizer. I have yet to see a paper that models this. Most of the estimates are purely…

In Denmark the pigs are fed soy imported from areas of the world where rainforests had to be cut down to make room for production. The short distance between Danish fields and sea, which is no where greater than 50kms, means most fertilizer from the pigs runs off into the sea, causing algae blooms that kill all other marine life.

Thats not really what I asked.

But in this situation would you not be better off taxing the soy imports and fining waste outflow?

Re: Gassy cows and pigs will face a carbon tax in Denmark, a world first

#35

Post by yza »

jacobgorm wrote: post #31
idrathernot wrote: post #26

So now they’ll just import the meat from places with even less environmental concern. Not that it matters as the people who support these types of broad punitive measures are mostly just virtue seeking idiots who only care about complex issues to the extent it can be used to advertise their own feelings of moral superiority.

Most meat produced by Danish farmers gets exported to countries like China. Only a small fraction gets consumed by Danes in Denmark. The pigs are transported alive to meat packing plants in Germany and Poland where wages are lower, and most farm hands in Denmark are cheap imported labor who often live under slave live conditions.

As a Ukrainian growing up and still living in Denmark and who has spoken to other Ukrainians working at those farms, I have never heard of “slave like conditions”. I’ve heard of hard manual labour and occasional disagreements with the owners of the farms though

Re: Gassy cows and pigs will face a carbon tax in Denmark, a world first

#37

Post by elzbardico »

In practice non-western countries will keep on using fossil fuels to enable their development and nothing will stop them till they burn the last drop of oil.

Denmark is a tiny country and their emissions are frankly, negligible.

So, just another emotional decision from western politicians.

Re: Gassy cows and pigs will face a carbon tax in Denmark, a world first

#38

Post by marcuskane2 »

idrathernot wrote: post #26

So now they’ll just import the meat from places with even less environmental concern. Not that it matters as the people who support these types of broad punitive measures are mostly just virtue seeking idiots who only care about complex issues to the extent it can be used to advertise their own feelings of moral superiority.

This is an egregious ad-hominem attack, which is both against HN guidelines and a failure of rational discourse.

The people who want to reduce pollution most likely just want to reduce the harms associated with that pollution, not your wacky accusation of their motives. And even if someone's motives were some weird bad thing, if their actions are good (eg, helping us all live better lives in a lower-pollution world) that would still be a good thing.

Re: Gassy cows and pigs will face a carbon tax in Denmark, a world first

#39

Post by ch0wn »

peterbraden wrote: post #28

Are there any reliable numbers on the holistic impact of ruminants? All of the carbon they emit came from the atmosphere via their plant diets, and a huge volume of that carbon is sequestered in the soil via their excrement. Ruminants help the soil, as opposed to modern agriculture which is largely reliant on fossil fuel derived fertilizer. I have yet to see a paper that models this. Most of the estimates are purely…

This is propaganda from the livestock lobby that has been disproved again and again. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/15/beef-f...

Re: Gassy cows and pigs will face a carbon tax in Denmark, a world first

#40

Post by stefantalpalaru »

peterbraden wrote: post #28

Are there any reliable numbers on the holistic impact of ruminants? All of the carbon they emit came from the atmosphere via their plant diets, and a huge volume of that carbon is sequestered in the soil via their excrement. Ruminants help the soil, as opposed to modern agriculture which is largely reliant on fossil fuel derived fertilizer. I have yet to see a paper that models this. Most of the estimates are purely…

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