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Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

arstechnica.com

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Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#31

Post by sgent »

PhilippGille wrote: post #28
vzaliva wrote: post #10

The new emerging hybrid model of non-profit foundations paired with for-profit businesses is certainly interesting, as it combines some "greater good" principles with the ability to build products and run businesses in a modern competitive market. I feel it may take some time to work out the details of these models. The biggest example we've seen is OpenAI, which, in my opinion, still hasn't solved this model and is…

> it combines some "greater good" principles with the ability to build products and run businesses in a modern competitive market There's also the PBC (Public Benefit Corporation), which in addition to profit / shareholder value explicitly defines positive impact on society as a goal, and exists since 2010 in some states, while in others only since 2022 [1]. But as far as I understand there are no legal requirements…

True, but PBC's are still for profit corporations and cannot benefit from tax and other benefits afforded to not for profits.

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#32

Post by riffraff »

vzaliva wrote: post #10

The new emerging hybrid model of non-profit foundations paired with for-profit businesses is certainly interesting, as it combines some "greater good" principles with the ability to build products and run businesses in a modern competitive market. I feel it may take some time to work out the details of these models. The biggest example we've seen is OpenAI, which, in my opinion, still hasn't solved this model and is…

how about mozilla? I believe it's been running with such a setup (foundation+corporation) for a long time.

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#34

Post by hombre_fatal »

WhackyIdeas wrote: post #15
devwastaken wrote: post #3

Reminder that Proton is not "private". They have all the keys, and willingly operate in a jurisdiction where they bend over backwards for ridiculous court orders. From their own transparency page: Number of legal orders: 6,378 Contested orders: 407 Orders complied with: 5,971 They did this to expose protestors and people who upset the powers that be, rarely real criminals. They could choose to operate in a country th…

I have been with Protonmail since 2014. And I feel that they are essentially now the same as any other company which makes loads of dollar - they give up their values. Don’t get me wrong, I have multiple ‘Visionary Accounts’ but I have just no expectation of them protecting my data completely. How do they get peoples passwords / keys? Easy. They just wait for you to log in and they swipe it then. It’s targeted. They…

Besides, none of it really matters when their customer service backdoor lets you into an account if you can enumerate recent emails that account has received. I'd never trust anything serious with Protonmail. (Try it)

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#35

Post by erk__ »

vzaliva wrote: post #10

The new emerging hybrid model of non-profit foundations paired with for-profit businesses is certainly interesting, as it combines some "greater good" principles with the ability to build products and run businesses in a modern competitive market. I feel it may take some time to work out the details of these models. The biggest example we've seen is OpenAI, which, in my opinion, still hasn't solved this model and is…

The biggest (by quite a margin still) is the Novo Nordisk foundation, but it is not really a new one. And its setup is rather different compared to OpenAI.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novo_Nordisk_Foundation

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#36

Post by nextos »

erk__ wrote: post #35
vzaliva wrote: post #10

The new emerging hybrid model of non-profit foundations paired with for-profit businesses is certainly interesting, as it combines some "greater good" principles with the ability to build products and run businesses in a modern competitive market. I feel it may take some time to work out the details of these models. The biggest example we've seen is OpenAI, which, in my opinion, still hasn't solved this model and is…

The biggest (by quite a margin still) is the Novo Nordisk foundation, but it is not really a new one. And its setup is rather different compared to OpenAI. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novo_Nordisk_Foundation

What about IKEA? It's smaller than Novo Nordisk, but they also use a non-profit parent company, which is admittedly a bit bizarre.

My experience interacting with Novo Nordisk is that, in their case, this model has led to massive inefficiencies.

The non-profit aspect has led to lots of internal politics and rigged hires. They are much more inefficient than a classical pharma.

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#37

Post by roomey »

ImJamal wrote: post #9
drpossum wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should back up your claim of "they have all the keys", because for things like email and file contents they claim they cannot decrypt them because they do not have those keys (which you have said they do). I believe it was stated on the page you copied those stats from https://proton.me/legal/transparency > As stated in our Privacy Policy, all emails, files and invites are encrypted and we have no means to decryp…

How do the emails get decrypted then? I imagine your password would decrypt the keys which would allow them to decrypt the emails? It seems like the next time you log in they would be able to capture your password and decrypt your emails.

There is an FAQ. They sat the emails get decrypted in your browser, or in the "bridge" which runs locally.

Your decrypted key isn't sent off your local computer. So it's not a case of waiting for you to log in and swipe your key. They never get the key.

In the past you could have a separate login password and decryption password. You still can in the advanced settings if you want.

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#38

Post by WhackyIdeas »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #34
WhackyIdeas wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been with Protonmail since 2014. And I feel that they are essentially now the same as any other company which makes loads of dollar - they give up their values. Don’t get me wrong, I have multiple ‘Visionary Accounts’ but I have just no expectation of them protecting my data completely. How do they get peoples passwords / keys? Easy. They just wait for you to log in and they swipe it then. It’s targeted. They…

Besides, none of it really matters when their customer service backdoor lets you into an account if you can enumerate recent emails that account has received. I'd never trust anything serious with Protonmail. (Try it)

Can you explain more about this, I am clueless to this? Appreciated!

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#39

Post by jjtheblunt »

riffraff wrote: post #32
vzaliva wrote: post #10

The new emerging hybrid model of non-profit foundations paired with for-profit businesses is certainly interesting, as it combines some "greater good" principles with the ability to build products and run businesses in a modern competitive market. I feel it may take some time to work out the details of these models. The biggest example we've seen is OpenAI, which, in my opinion, still hasn't solved this model and is…

how about mozilla? I believe it's been running with such a setup (foundation+corporation) for a long time.

databricks too, the commercialization arm of the Apache Spark people

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#40

Post by scns »

nextos wrote: post #36
erk__ wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest (by quite a margin still) is the Novo Nordisk foundation, but it is not really a new one. And its setup is rather different compared to OpenAI. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novo_Nordisk_Foundation

What about IKEA? It's smaller than Novo Nordisk, but they also use a non-profit parent company, which is admittedly a bit bizarre. My experience interacting with Novo Nordisk is that, in their case, this model has led to massive inefficiencies. The non-profit aspect has led to lots of internal politics and rigged hires. They are much more inefficient than a classical pharma.

> What about IKEA? It's smaller than Novo Nordisk, but they also use a non-profit parent company, which is admittedly a bit bizarre.

Smells like tax evasion, but what do i know. Isn't IKEAs founder one of the richest people in Swiss?

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