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New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

signal.org

31–40 of 45 posts

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#31
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but it would then be your choice. and, c’mon, people do harder things in the interest of family. Maintaining a home is a shitload of work, but we dont live in a prison so that we can avoid the effort of cleaning and cooking. The skills to run a federated matrix instance, for example, can be had in less time than it takes to learn how to BBQ without starting a fire or poisoning someone. Yet we choose to do that, we ev…

There are a lot of different layers here. Sure, it's not hard at all to set up a federated matrix instance. Doing it so it's as secure as keeping something in a locked house though, that's actually a pretty tricky skill. I'll grant that it's not necessarily harder than safe cooking, but it's a lot easier to find someone who can teach you safe cooking. Now, another layer is that while I have a healthy distrust of corp…

I’m going to continue the analogy then;

In truth: I’d rather someone else cook my meals, seriously.

I’m a terrible cook, however what is happening is that everyone has decided they they’re a terrible cook and the planet has become completely dependent on fast-food restaurant chains.

“But its where my friends are, they would never join me in a steak restaurant, it’s unfamiliar and theres no parking”.

We forgot how to make home-cooked meals, its learned helplessness, for decades.

It’s going to be painful if we start now. It’s going to be even more painful if we start a decade from now.

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#32
post #28
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not just idealistic - it's bordering on naive. Tech companies have proven, repeatedly, over decades, that they are not responsible with our data.

And are users more responsible with their data? I'm not saying to trust companies, I'm merely saying that it's a harder challenge to put the burden on users doing everything correctly than on the products being built with more ethics in mind.

The difference is a user doesn't bundle up the data of millions or billions of people to sell.

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#33
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two are not related. Signal has no proper backup and restore, otherwise you could have restored.mulziple times over. It's one of the things that piss me off about signal. Just give me a fucking Backup that I can restore on android and iPhone and desktop alike!

They are related: even if Signal had a backup, you’d have to have some way to recover the key when you lose your device. For example, Matrix does offer backups but you need a key to decrypt the backup if you lose access to all your verified devices. Without some easy to use out-of-band key backup solution, an E2EE server backup is no backup at all.

I'm confused by this thread. Signal does have backup options (just not on every platform). https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007059752-Ba...

If you have an Android device you can literally backup your Signal message history and move it wherever you want.

I think Windows has an unofficial option. But yea you're out of luck on macOS and iOS it seems.

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#34
post #32
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And are users more responsible with their data? I'm not saying to trust companies, I'm merely saying that it's a harder challenge to put the burden on users doing everything correctly than on the products being built with more ethics in mind.

The difference is a user doesn't bundle up the data of millions or billions of people to sell.

Yes, and the solution in my view is to put an end to the sale of data from millions of users.

In the anarcho-capitalist mindset the only solutions are technological, but we also have governments (even if they have gotten useless regarding tech issues). But we could enforce something like having any company that has more than 1 million users to have one executive on board that's a government employee tasked with overseeing its operation. I wouldn't want something like this, it's just an example, but I'd at least expect some better discourse than putting the burden on the consumer, and basically abandoning 90% of the population that can't handle managing their own tech stack.

When doctors are found prescribing medication with severe side-effects, we don't say "just learn to medicate yourself". We still learn how to medicate ourselves, but we also ask for less corruption in the system.

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#35

I just want to express how much I appreciate Meredith Whittaker. She helped organize the Google walkouts, She's been working on AI safety since at least 2016, She advised Lina Khan at the FTC, and new she's out here advocating for preserving E2EE. A lot of people online give her flak for her opinions, but she's been consistently very loud and occasionally influential. She's done some cool uncontroversial tech work to…

Isn't RMS the closest thing we have to an RMS-type figure?

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#36
post #34
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is a user doesn't bundle up the data of millions or billions of people to sell.

Yes, and the solution in my view is to put an end to the sale of data from millions of users. In the anarcho-capitalist mindset the only solutions are technological, but we also have governments (even if they have gotten useless regarding tech issues). But we could enforce something like having any company that has more than 1 million users to have one executive on board that's a government employee tasked with overs…

It sounded to me like you were the one suggesting we let users "medicate themselves" regarding their data.

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#37
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of different layers here. Sure, it's not hard at all to set up a federated matrix instance. Doing it so it's as secure as keeping something in a locked house though, that's actually a pretty tricky skill. I'll grant that it's not necessarily harder than safe cooking, but it's a lot easier to find someone who can teach you safe cooking. Now, another layer is that while I have a healthy distrust of corp…

I’m going to continue the analogy then; In truth: I’d rather someone else cook my meals, seriously. I’m a terrible cook, however what is happening is that everyone has decided they they’re a terrible cook and the planet has become completely dependent on fast-food restaurant chains. “But its where my friends are, they would never join me in a steak restaurant, it’s unfamiliar and theres no parking”. We forgot how to…

This isn't food, it's mail delivery. As a general rule I don't hand-deliver my own letters and I shouldn't have to hand-deliver them to get privacy.

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#38
post #11
post #2

After losing my phone and not having a way to recover a lot of data, I've come to the realization that I don't want end to end encryption. I just want a responsible entity to store all my data in a secure way, and they'd only make money from what I'd pay them. If I lose everything, I still want access to my data, even if a proof of identity costs me. Of course incentive systems make that very hard in today's corporat…

Your ideal situation is likely federation. But Signal doesn't want that, and most people are too cowardly to trust anyone other than the people who absolutely must make a profit running such a system.

This is not about trust. Its about ease of use and not wanting to learn to do anything complicated. Like using encryption or something more complicated than a Facebook feed.

Try taking to normal people. They will find their pitchforks if you mention encryption and privacy.

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#40
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m going to continue the analogy then; In truth: I’d rather someone else cook my meals, seriously. I’m a terrible cook, however what is happening is that everyone has decided they they’re a terrible cook and the planet has become completely dependent on fast-food restaurant chains. “But its where my friends are, they would never join me in a steak restaurant, it’s unfamiliar and theres no parking”. We forgot how to…

This isn't food, it's mail delivery. As a general rule I don't hand-deliver my own letters and I shouldn't have to hand-deliver them to get privacy.

Well, you see even there I think you'd think differently if people lived in the same general area as you and you could conceivably walk passed their door.

And the delivery service in question was, slow, arbitrarily changing their rules and governed in a foreign country that had a bad reputation for dragnet surveillance.

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