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FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

nytimes.com

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Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#31

Post by Arnt »

jordanb wrote: post #10
JSDevOps wrote: post #3

How the fuck do you counterfeit titanium it’s one of those things that is either or it’s not.

Improper alloying, improper heat treating, improper rolling/forming. Trying to back out what you actually have (if you don't trust the supply chain) can be expensive metallurgical analysis involving destructive testing, spectrometers, and electron microscopes. The real way industry solves this problem is mill test reports produced by the suppliers and careful documentation of chain-of-custody. Unless you don't care,…

Oddly enough, this one seems to pass at least some testing even despite the phony documentation.

This seems to be about this titan: «Boeing and Airbus both said their tests of affected materials so far had shown no signs of problems.» I read this as implying that Airbus has been buying other things from the same source and done its own tests on samples: «“Numerous tests have been performed on parts coming from the same source of supply,” an Airbus spokeswoman said…»

Is the documentation process expensive enough that it's worth faking it even when the tested material is OK? Weird if so.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#32

Post by constantcrying »

Simulacra wrote: post #21

Do aviation parts have traceability? Like a serial number or qr code that can be used to identify suspect components?

>Do aviation parts have traceability? Like a serial number or qr code that can be used to identify suspect components?

Are you kidding? I doubt there is a single industry which empathizes traceability more than aerospace.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#33

Post by DannyBee »

icegreentea2 wrote: post #16
DannyBee wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, i answered the literal question. You are correct that this is what the article says - testing suggests it is in fact titanium, just maybe not the right treatment. That would be harder, but one would think that a company making airframes for aviation, in a highly regulated environment/etc, would occasionally send off samples to double check them. Getting titanium analyzed to a degree you could tell whether it is…

For all we know, Spirit could have had sufficient testing, and the titanium actually pass all tests. That doesn't preclude fraudulent certificates.

Except the article says they only tested it after they found corrosion reported back to them (IE they did not discover or test it ahead of time), and that testing they have now done says it is not treated properly.

So it doesn't appear Spirit has sufficient testing, or that the titanium passes all the tests.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#34

Post by caminante »

josefx wrote: post #22
icegreentea2 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the problematic outsourcing decision here? Buying your titanium from a titanium supplier? Is Spirit supposed to be refine and foundry all their own metal alloys? I agree that it's a little bonkers that Boeing spun off it's own aerostructures, but since it seems like Boeing has it's own problems with internal fraudulent inspection reports, this sure doesn't seem like an out sourcing problem per-se.

> What was the problematic outsourcing decision here? Buying from an untrusted source without any verification of your own in place. > Buying your titanium from a titanium supplier? For all we know they bought it on wish.com. > Is Spirit supposed to be refine and foundry all their own metal alloys? Random sampling of materials to determine if the delivery is fit for purpose should be the absolute minimum.

That's the point.

The parent is blaming quality control steps of outsourced materials at Boeing (not third party).

"Outsourcing = bad" is missing the point.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#35

Post by sieabahlpark »

constantcrying wrote: post #27
bell-cot wrote: post #2

However much you can "save" by outsourcing...in a sufficiently fraud-plagued business environment, it's seldom worth it longer-term. Conveniently, modern businesses and their leaders are judged and rewarded purely on short-term metrics.

>However much you can "save" by outsourcing...in a sufficiently fraud-plagued business environment, it's seldom worth it longer-term. Outsourcing is mandatory if you are a company in aerospace. How would you even start making an airplane without outsourcing?

[dead]

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#37

Post by chaostheory »

icegreentea2 wrote: post #13
bell-cot wrote: post #2

However much you can "save" by outsourcing...in a sufficiently fraud-plagued business environment, it's seldom worth it longer-term. Conveniently, modern businesses and their leaders are judged and rewarded purely on short-term metrics.

What was the problematic outsourcing decision here? Buying your titanium from a titanium supplier? Is Spirit supposed to be refine and foundry all their own metal alloys? I agree that it's a little bonkers that Boeing spun off it's own aerostructures, but since it seems like Boeing has it's own problems with internal fraudulent inspection reports, this sure doesn't seem like an out sourcing problem per-se.

Not sure if this was technically outsourcing, but moving maintenance overseas to developing countries where agencies like the FAA have a much harder time to inspect the planes.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11/airplane-maintenance...

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#38

Post by 1992spacemovie »

constantcrying wrote: post #32
Simulacra wrote: post #21

Do aviation parts have traceability? Like a serial number or qr code that can be used to identify suspect components?

>Do aviation parts have traceability? Like a serial number or qr code that can be used to identify suspect components? Are you kidding? I doubt there is a single industry which empathizes traceability more than aerospace.

> Are you kidding?

He’s not kidding - just ignorant. Another long running comment on HN where folks think every other industry is as fucked as tech.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#39

Post by drsnow »

constantcrying wrote: post #27
bell-cot wrote: post #2

However much you can "save" by outsourcing...in a sufficiently fraud-plagued business environment, it's seldom worth it longer-term. Conveniently, modern businesses and their leaders are judged and rewarded purely on short-term metrics.

>However much you can "save" by outsourcing...in a sufficiently fraud-plagued business environment, it's seldom worth it longer-term. Outsourcing is mandatory if you are a company in aerospace. How would you even start making an airplane without outsourcing?

I'd imagine by insourcing.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#40

Post by gravescale »

Onavo wrote: post #30
zukzuk wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"politics" is quite the euphemism for "military invasion, violent aggression, and war crimes"!

"politics" did not stop the US from acquiring Russian Ti during the cold war.

No, but when you do that you have to make sure it's used in a maximally ironic way like making a spy plane to use against them. Double points for telling them (or saying you told them) a story that makes them look like mugs in retrospect like "it's for pizza ovens, don't worry about it".
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