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An Algorithmic Solution to Insomnia

ilya.sukhar.com

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Re: An Algorithmic Solution to Insomnia

#31

Post by szvsw »

ein0p wrote: post #29
szvsw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really a good idea IMO to recommend psychoactive solutions without consulting with a dr. Obviously MJ is relatively tame and safe, but insomnia can have a lot of other underlying factors/comorbidities which can also elevate risk for substance abuse (eg depression, OCD, etc) or improper self-medication, and developing a dependence on MJ as a sleep aid in those cases isn’t great. Can also quickly develop a toleranc…

Hence the disclaimer. All I can say is it worked for me. I make no further claims. I’ve also found doctors to be borderline useless for stuff like this. You might even get a prescription for addictive (and psychoactive) sleeping pills which you’ll then be taking for years. At least with MJ you can just stop taking it.

Yep, I hear ya and mostly agree, that’s why I made the point about ambien. Not trying to sound like a Nancy Reagan or anything. I was just trying to caution against self-medication, because it’s not uncommon for people to not realize that there are other factors affecting their sleep health. It might be the case that MJ actually also ends up being a good treatment for those things as well, which is awesome, but it also can go the other way, and it becomes a mask/crutch etc. Just advocating for people to investigate the causes of their insomnia and think critically about whether or not a psychoactive solution is appropriate for them, possibly in conjunction with a doctor or therapist and if not then at least with some form of accountability if necessary, like a friend etc.

MJ works for a lot of people and is, generally speaking, perfectly safe. For some people it’s not appropriate, and I think that’s at least worth highlighting.

Re: An Algorithmic Solution to Insomnia

#32

Post by WalterSear »

terr-dav wrote: post #13
JonChesterfield wrote: post #9

Melatonin. There's loads of wisdom about improving sleep. Exercise, wind down rituals, avoiding caffeine, various diet ideas. Changing bedtime, changing alarm time. Nothing made a perceptible difference. Dropping caffeine was especially useless advice as it has no impact on my sleep but made me much less effective. Melatonin tablets however are magic. My pet theory is the CYP1A2 genotype which is known to control how…

A word of caution on melatonin supplementation: https://ai.hubermanlab.com/s/NKoA_QuI

Huberman takes jumps of logic that no respectable scientist should. Matt Walker has had a paper retracked, and his book on sleep is controversial to say the least:

https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/

In this case, Huberman's neglects to address the fact that melatonin production is reduced as we age, not just in those with pineal gland calcification. He provides no sources for the argument that commercial preparations are inconsistent, and (IIRC) fails to even approach or suggest a solution to the much more problematic fact that even the lowest available dosages are an order of magnitude more than is appropriate. If he thinks it has merit for jet-lag and calcified pineal gland, at least he could instruct people how to take it appropriately.

I used to respect him, avidly listen to every show until I noticed how almost reactantly uninformed he appears to keep himself of anything he's already passed judgement on, as well as the dearth criticality with which treats the sometimes questionable guests on his show.

Also the Athletic Greens thing: someone who's pupporting to be purveying knowledge for the goodness of mankind should not be peddling snake oil, whether he likes the flavour or not.

Re: An Algorithmic Solution to Insomnia

#34

Post by Hydrocarb0n »

I struggled with bouts of insomnia, not quite as bad as author. I found taking sea kelp / Iodine has cured it, its a remarkable change, I feel tired after 20mins in bed and fall asleep, and I wake with the sun and don't feel tired when waking. The Thyroid is the Master hormone.

Re: An Algorithmic Solution to Insomnia

#35

Post by JonChesterfield »

terr-dav wrote: post #13
JonChesterfield wrote: post #9

Melatonin. There's loads of wisdom about improving sleep. Exercise, wind down rituals, avoiding caffeine, various diet ideas. Changing bedtime, changing alarm time. Nothing made a perceptible difference. Dropping caffeine was especially useless advice as it has no impact on my sleep but made me much less effective. Melatonin tablets however are magic. My pet theory is the CYP1A2 genotype which is known to control how…

A word of caution on melatonin supplementation: https://ai.hubermanlab.com/s/NKoA_QuI

The health risks associated with insomnia are stroke and dementia.

Re: An Algorithmic Solution to Insomnia

#36

Post by bitshiftfaced »

taeric wrote: post #15

Obviously YMMV, but I've found having an exhausted body works wonders for falling to sleep. So, don't just exercise, do something physically tough that drains you. If you have to do that in the form of running/jogging/biking, fine. But you can also tend a garden. Clean the house. Organize something. Lots of things that are physically demanding. I'm also skeptical of the advice to not nap. I'd go so far as to say that…

Napping reduces sleep pressure, making it more difficult to fall asleep at bedtime.

Re: An Algorithmic Solution to Insomnia

#37

Post by taeric »

bitshiftfaced wrote: post #36
taeric wrote: post #15

Obviously YMMV, but I've found having an exhausted body works wonders for falling to sleep. So, don't just exercise, do something physically tough that drains you. If you have to do that in the form of running/jogging/biking, fine. But you can also tend a garden. Clean the house. Organize something. Lots of things that are physically demanding. I'm also skeptical of the advice to not nap. I'd go so far as to say that…

Napping reduces sleep pressure, making it more difficult to fall asleep at bedtime.

That is certainly a view, there. Resisting sleep also teaches your body to resist sleep...

That is, I don't think it is cut and dried. I can concede that napping too often is bad. I can also think that napping is not necessarily bad.

Re: An Algorithmic Solution to Insomnia

#38

Post by bitshiftfaced »

taeric wrote: post #37
bitshiftfaced wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Napping reduces sleep pressure, making it more difficult to fall asleep at bedtime.

That is certainly a view, there. Resisting sleep also teaches your body to resist sleep... That is, I don't think it is cut and dried. I can concede that napping too often is bad. I can also think that napping is not necessarily bad.

A good example might be to look at sleep consultants and books about sleep training infants and small children. What they will tell you is that a baby can learn to go to sleep for bedtime independently, and they can learn to take naps independently, but learning one doesn't mean they learn the other. You have to do it for both naps and bedtime. Babies "know" when a nap is a nap, and when nighttime sleep is nighttime sleep. That is to say, humans are diurnal.

Also keep in mind the context of the article. We're talking about insomnia. You're invoking the idea of behavioral habits ("teaches your body)". In fact, the recommendation for not napping comes from behaviorists, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia. I imagine that the idea is to do things that maximize the chance that you actually get the behavior you're aiming for and building on that (maximizing sleep pressure felt during bedtime).

I don't think there's anything wrong with napping for someone who doesn't suffer from insomnia.

Re: An Algorithmic Solution to Insomnia

#39

Post by taeric »

bitshiftfaced wrote: post #38
taeric wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is certainly a view, there. Resisting sleep also teaches your body to resist sleep... That is, I don't think it is cut and dried. I can concede that napping too often is bad. I can also think that napping is not necessarily bad.

A good example might be to look at sleep consultants and books about sleep training infants and small children. What they will tell you is that a baby can learn to go to sleep for bedtime independently, and they can learn to take naps independently, but learning one doesn't mean they learn the other. You have to do it for both naps and bedtime. Babies "know" when a nap is a nap, and when nighttime sleep is nighttime…

I have probably an unhealthy level of skepticism that has mostly been fine for me. But, I am wary of a ton of the dialog around sleep that has pervaded everywhere. Raising several children, and never having an alarm clock in the house, a lot of what I've been exposed to in the learnings has been... susp. Obviously, YMMV, and I do NOT think they are liars or frauds.

My specific confusion on advising folks to skip naps is that I did not think that was a thing insomniacs even had to worry about. My clearly outdated model of insomnia was people that have trouble sleeping. Period. This did not include people that have shifted their sleep to the day, as that advice seems to imply to me. (That is, I thought insomnia wasn't "can't sleep at night," but "can't sleep." Appears the definition I learned was wrong, or we have expanded it since i learned it. (Or several other possibilities, of course.))

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