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Assange loses extradition appeal

bbc.co.uk

31–40 of 63 posts

Re: Assange loses extradition appeal

#31

This is probably an unpopular opinion for some of the HN population, but I wish that Assange would be extradited to Sweden. He's appealing extradition on technical grounds, and it's about time he went to Sweden and faced the judicial system there. All of the current proceedings are a sideshow which have nothing to do with the things he'd accused of. He's accused of sexual offenses in Sweden, we have a working system…

It is worth pointing out that there is a warrant out for his arrest to question him on suspicion.

He has not been charged with an offense.

This distinction is mostly left out in the news coverage.

And the arrest warrant was as far as I know was made at the behest of the police and prosecutor without a formal complaint from either of the women. At least the accounts I've seen indicate that the women came to the police jointly to ask for advice on whether or not they could demand and AIDS test of him, and described the situation in such terms that the police decided to get him in for questioning based on their own suspicions despite the fact that another prosecutor had closed the case because she believed there was no indication a crime had been committed.

Based on that he faces a substantial risk of jail without bail possibly for months on end because they have preferred to spend a year and a half on a lengthy legal process instead of taking up past offers of interviewing him about the case in London.

Conspiracy or not, there seems to be more big egos and agendas involved than Assanges, and in those circumstances anyone should be wary about going back voluntarily.

Maybe he is guilty. Maybe he's a horrible person. But guilty or not, if the situation is the way I've seen it described, I'd fight tooth and nail to stay out of Sweden too.

Re: Assange loses extradition appeal

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, this is ridiculous: > But Dinah Rose QC, for Mr Assange, said she could challenge the Supreme Court's decision because it relied on a 1969 convention relating to how treaties - such as those concerning extradition - should be implemented, and this had not been discussed during the hearing. Watch and see. Now his lawyer will put into question the very meaning of implementing an international treaty. All in orde…

You do know the circumstances around the "accusation" right? I mean, it seems to me some people here are willfully ignorant. I despise willful ignorance. Assange hasn't been charged with any crime. If you looked at the actual circumstances, you would find the comparison to Polanski who indeed raped a 13 year old girl, is highly unfair, if not for a lack of word, stupid. Oh, and the sex was consensual according to the…

Assange has not been charged with a crime because Swedish law requires him to be present in Sweden before they do so. This is one of 22 comment on this very article--if you're going to charge people with willful ignorance you probably need a more credible position to do so. :)

As I understand it both women claim he had sex non-consensually with them - with one he had sex with her while she was asleep, in the other case she insisted he used a condom and he refused, while holding her down with his weight. Both of those sound like rape to me (and that's how the Swedish name for the offense, olaga tvång, is usually translated as I understand it).

Assange, by his own words and actions, comes across as quite an unpleasant man. It's not hard to see him fighting his extradition to Sweden as being motivated by him feeling that his conduct in bed with these women was reasonable. It wasn't, and I'm sad (but I guess not surprised) at the misogyny some people defending him display.

Re: Assange loses extradition appeal

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, this is ridiculous: > But Dinah Rose QC, for Mr Assange, said she could challenge the Supreme Court's decision because it relied on a 1969 convention relating to how treaties - such as those concerning extradition - should be implemented, and this had not been discussed during the hearing. Watch and see. Now his lawyer will put into question the very meaning of implementing an international treaty. All in orde…

You do know the circumstances around the "accusation" right? I mean, it seems to me some people here are willfully ignorant. I despise willful ignorance. Assange hasn't been charged with any crime. If you looked at the actual circumstances, you would find the comparison to Polanski who indeed raped a 13 year old girl, is highly unfair, if not for a lack of word, stupid. Oh, and the sex was consensual according to the…

I don't think highly of Assange. I can't precisely tell you why, but despite the fact that I admire his dedication to Wikileaks, my impression is that he is pretty full of himself. I might very well be wrong and he might be a fantastic person, but that's my impression. And if even 1/10th of the description of him related to this case is right, he seems to be at least pretty stupid.

But I still think these "accusations" are fishy to the extreme. There might not be a conspiracy, but that doesn't mean that there might not be two scorned women out for revenge coupled with a lawyer and prosecutor who see a combination of a career move and pursuit of a political agenda.

And that in itself is good reason to stay out if at all possible.

Re: Assange loses extradition appeal

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, this is ridiculous: > But Dinah Rose QC, for Mr Assange, said she could challenge the Supreme Court's decision because it relied on a 1969 convention relating to how treaties - such as those concerning extradition - should be implemented, and this had not been discussed during the hearing. Watch and see. Now his lawyer will put into question the very meaning of implementing an international treaty. All in orde…

You do know the circumstances around the "accusation" right? I mean, it seems to me some people here are willfully ignorant. I despise willful ignorance. Assange hasn't been charged with any crime. If you looked at the actual circumstances, you would find the comparison to Polanski who indeed raped a 13 year old girl, is highly unfair, if not for a lack of word, stupid. Oh, and the sex was consensual according to the…

Because Sweden will give him to the CIA, which will disappear him into their network of black sites forever.

Reading it, it sounds so nutty - but, fuck if I wouldn't give anything I have to be making this up.

Re: Assange loses extradition appeal

#35
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are claiming (based on leaked Stratfor emails) that there is a sealed indictment for him in the US, and that the moment he goes to Sweden he will be whisked away for a secret trial at the hands of the Americans. The issue is not so much the Swedish charges, but the difference in attitudes about extradition to the US between Sweden and the UK. http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/...…

I still don't understand this, though. Under the US-UK extradition treaty (signed into law in the UK in 2003, in the US in 2006, I think), all the US has to do is provide the UK with reasonable suspicion that Assange committed a crime within the US, and the British would hand him over. Is the Swedish extradition treaty vastly different?

I don't think this has anything to do with the treaty texts.

UK judges are known to stand up to the political establishment when parliament doesn't get their ducks in a row and very, very carefully make sure they are consistent with UK constitutional law, which does in fact provide fairly strong protections, and even more so coupled with the Human Rights Act. This to the ongoing exasperation of UK politicians. Swedish judges does not have a similar reputation.

I could very well see a UK judge deciding that extradition would not be compatible with rights guaranteed to him under UK or EU law, regardless of the treaty, due to the state of the US legal system, but I really can't imagine a Swedish judge thinking twice about it...

Maybe I'm being overly cynical, but personally I would not take my chances if Sweden if I didn't really have to if I was in his shoes.

Re: Assange loses extradition appeal

#36

This is probably an unpopular opinion for some of the HN population, but I wish that Assange would be extradited to Sweden. He's appealing extradition on technical grounds, and it's about time he went to Sweden and faced the judicial system there. All of the current proceedings are a sideshow which have nothing to do with the things he'd accused of. He's accused of sexual offenses in Sweden, we have a working system…

Agree, this is ridiculous: > But Dinah Rose QC, for Mr Assange, said she could challenge the Supreme Court's decision because it relied on a 1969 convention relating to how treaties - such as those concerning extradition - should be implemented, and this had not been discussed during the hearing. Watch and see. Now his lawyer will put into question the very meaning of implementing an international treaty. All in orde…

Yes because anybody who has been accussed of rape is clearly guilty. And a child molester.

Re: Assange loses extradition appeal

#37
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't he be questioned in Britain?

"Swedish law requires a person to be physically present before charges can be laid, so this can only happen once Mr Assange is on Swedish territory." http://www.fairtrials.net/documents/Sweden_QA.pdf That's just how their justice system works. He is accused of committing the crimes in Sweden, so in Sweden shall he be questioned.

You haven't answered the question.

Re: Assange loses extradition appeal

#38
My sense is that while people across the world are polarised in their opinions of Assange himself, there's still a lot of disquiet about the question of his (potential/likely?) deportation to the U.S. only to face a Grand Jury, as opposed to due process, the rule of law, and a properly constituted court.

As a non-American, it makes me wonder whether this isn't the time for a serious conversation about amending our extradition laws and treaties to exclude any jurisdictions that don't meet the basic standards of justice expected of a modern democracy.

Re: Assange loses extradition appeal

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do know the circumstances around the "accusation" right? I mean, it seems to me some people here are willfully ignorant. I despise willful ignorance. Assange hasn't been charged with any crime. If you looked at the actual circumstances, you would find the comparison to Polanski who indeed raped a 13 year old girl, is highly unfair, if not for a lack of word, stupid. Oh, and the sex was consensual according to the…

Assange has not been charged with a crime because Swedish law requires him to be present in Sweden before they do so. This is one of 22 comment on this very article--if you're going to charge people with willful ignorance you probably need a more credible position to do so. :) As I understand it both women claim he had sex non-consensually with them - with one he had sex with her while she was asleep, in the other ca…

> Assange has not been charged with a crime because Swedish law requires him to be present in Sweden before they do so.

He is wanted for arrest to be questioned on suspicion. He has not been interviewed. It would be absolutely shockingly unprecedented even for Sweden if they intend to charge him based on testimony that one prosecutor didn't even believe indicated a crime had taken place, without a formal complaint (see below), without physical evidence and without having conducted an interview to get his side of the story.

You seem to try to make it out as if this is just a formality and he's "practically charged", just not technically because they need to wait until he'se there first.

If this is just a technicality, then this case stinks to high heaven based on the information that's been disclosed about this case so far.

The problem is, if it isn't just a technicality, and they seriously want to do an interview before making a reasoned decision about whether to charge him, they've had several opportunities to do so a long time ago, and refused, in order to spend a year and a half trying to get him into a Swedish jail.

In either case something is up. Possibly just the career goals of the prosecutor. But this is not how this plays out for less high profile cases in Scandinavia. Not even in Sweden.

> As I understand it both women claim he had sex non-consensually with them

As I understand it, both women described something that the police decided to interpret as non-consensual sex without a formal complaint from either of them - an interpretation one of the prosecutors who reviewed the case thought was nonsense.

> It wasn't,

His behavior has not been proven to be anywhere near the media portrayal of the complaint, nor has the testimony of the women in question been under any kind of serious scrutiny. Maybe it was just like that. Maybe it was worse. Or nothing criminal might have happened.

After all the case only still exists because it was in a pretty much unprecedented manner picked up by a second prosecutor known for her hardline views and desire to significantly tighten up Swedish rape laws well beyond anywhere else in Europe after one prosecutor dismissed it on the belief that there had not been any crime.

At the same time, one of the women tried to remove tweets that described how she'd had a great time with Assange after the alleged rape, and a blog post describing exactly how to use a similar method of going to the police to describe a situation as a legal method of taking revenge on someone.

Assange might very well be guilty, but there are enough bizarre things about this case that if he is innocent, he has every reason to fight this extradition, particularly given his background, out of a concern for the motivations of the prosecution. As such, using his decision to fight extradition as an indicator of what he thinks or doesn't think about what behavior is reasonable or whether or not he is guilty of a crime is flawed.

Re: Assange loses extradition appeal

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do know the circumstances around the "accusation" right? I mean, it seems to me some people here are willfully ignorant. I despise willful ignorance. Assange hasn't been charged with any crime. If you looked at the actual circumstances, you would find the comparison to Polanski who indeed raped a 13 year old girl, is highly unfair, if not for a lack of word, stupid. Oh, and the sex was consensual according to the…

Assange has not been charged with a crime because Swedish law requires him to be present in Sweden before they do so. This is one of 22 comment on this very article--if you're going to charge people with willful ignorance you probably need a more credible position to do so. :) As I understand it both women claim he had sex non-consensually with them - with one he had sex with her while she was asleep, in the other ca…

From what I remember of the case when it transpired. Both women had no problems with having slept with Assange (as expressed through texts and tweets that were removed). It was only when they became aware of each other that they went to the police. And not to a station near the women, but to one where the women knew a friend (though I'm not sure how unreasonable this is, if she had been raped). Also, when someone expresses ulterior motives (revenge, defamation) with regards to a rape accusation (where it often becomes word against word), and also when also having expressed consent to the sex... to later change their minds. You bet I'm suspicious.

Also, I was not aware one had to be in Sweden to be charged with a crime. I find that a bit surprising, but I'll take your word for it for now and look into it later.

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