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The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

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Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#31

Post by fuzztester »

anthk wrote: post #13
card_zero wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just shoehorning in the assumption that people had diarrhea a lot, because that's the trope about medieval Europe. But if everybody lives in a well-established traditional way (and there's no current war or plague in the area) then they will also know by tradition the springs, streams and wells that yield clean water. In Georgian times, around 1800, coal-based industry gets under way, there's a population expl…

Even "natural springs" could give you tons of diarrhea due to some animals taking a dump nearby.

Yep, thought of that as soon as I read the parent and GP comments.

And I have also thought of the same point on my own before.

And it's not just:

>could give you tons of diarrhea due to some animals taking a dump nearby.

But also: from all the way upstream (from aquatic animal life), and from the upstream watersheds (from terrestrial animal life), which, all together, is a shit-ton of dumps, pun not intended.

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#32

Post by hnlmorg »

neuronerdgirl wrote: post #27
hnlmorg wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s pretty well documented during the Middle Ages that people thought it was the smell that made them ill and not any bacteria

And smell and bacterial levels are absolutely correlated

They are. But the solution to each might be different. And given the specific argument being contested here is whether beer was drank because it was considered safer, understanding their motives is pretty fundamental to that discussion.

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#33

Post by fuzztester »

anthk wrote: post #13
card_zero wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just shoehorning in the assumption that people had diarrhea a lot, because that's the trope about medieval Europe. But if everybody lives in a well-established traditional way (and there's no current war or plague in the area) then they will also know by tradition the springs, streams and wells that yield clean water. In Georgian times, around 1800, coal-based industry gets under way, there's a population expl…

Even "natural springs" could give you tons of diarrhea due to some animals taking a dump nearby.

Yes. Another corroborating comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40413484

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#34

Post by fuzztester »

resolutebat wrote: post #12
card_zero wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just shoehorning in the assumption that people had diarrhea a lot, because that's the trope about medieval Europe. But if everybody lives in a well-established traditional way (and there's no current war or plague in the area) then they will also know by tradition the springs, streams and wells that yield clean water. In Georgian times, around 1800, coal-based industry gets under way, there's a population expl…

Natural springs are rare, while streams and rivers are often muddy, seasonal and/or contaminated by domestic animals and wildlife. There's a reason wells were very common.

Well water is not safe either. It's exposed to the atmosphere, so to dust, birds (both s(h)itting and flying), and insects, etc.

Depending on the shape and structure of the well, rats can crawl inside, and lizards, and cockroaches and other insects can crawl in anyway, and poop there. and we all know about rats as a vector of many serious diseases, like the plague in said mediaeval times.

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#35

Post by doingtheiroming »

There’s a line in one of the Aubury Maturin books, Clarissa Oaks when pumping the ship bilges, a sailor remarks, “she flows as clear and sweet as Hobson’s conduit”.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson's_Conduit

Fresh water was consumed in prodigious quantities in the Royal Navy, not least for watering down grog but also for extracting the salt from salted meats.

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#37

Post by fuzztester »

legitster wrote: post #3

I feel like some of these debunkings need debunking! I don't think anyone is truly arguing that medieval people never drank water. But they did drink beer in quantities that would be untenable today. The author is also muddling points - medieval people didn't have to understand microbiology to know that beer was safer to drink. And it was! Not only would the brewer have access to better water, it would be boiled as p…

>With workplaces themselves providing it by the truckload.

Also probably doing that to keep them working there longer too.

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#38

Post by fuzztester »

ggm wrote: post #9

"12 years in a monastery" (1897) by Joseph McCabe mentions the astronomical amount of beer drunk by monks, as a matter of routine (albiet in the late 19th century) He was one, before he went over the wall and became a proto socialist free thinker philosopher.

Reminds me of Trappist monk beers, that I have read about, but not tried.

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#39

Post by kybernetikos »

legitster wrote: post #3

I feel like some of these debunkings need debunking! I don't think anyone is truly arguing that medieval people never drank water. But they did drink beer in quantities that would be untenable today. The author is also muddling points - medieval people didn't have to understand microbiology to know that beer was safer to drink. And it was! Not only would the brewer have access to better water, it would be boiled as p…

Sounds a lot like the role coca cola plays today, with tourists drinking it in preference to water they don't know as well as just wide drinking of it because it's tastier than water.

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#40

Post by scarby2 »

closewith wrote: post #19
card_zero wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just shoehorning in the assumption that people had diarrhea a lot, because that's the trope about medieval Europe. But if everybody lives in a well-established traditional way (and there's no current war or plague in the area) then they will also know by tradition the springs, streams and wells that yield clean water. In Georgian times, around 1800, coal-based industry gets under way, there's a population expl…

People have diarrhoea a lot today, in developed countries with stable access to clean water and food. If anything, people massively underestimate the amount of diarrhoea premodern living involved.

>People have diarrhoea a lot today, in developed countries with stable access to clean water and food

My personal experience suggests it's pretty uncommon. Maybe once every few years, and I eat all sorts of questionable things.

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