So much effort expended trying to put a genie back into a bottle.
Apple, SpaceX, Microsoft return-to-office mandates drove senior talent away
31–40 of 56 posts
Re: Apple, SpaceX, Microsoft return-to-office mandates drove senior talent away
#32I think the outcome of all of this is going to be much more aggressive cost-of-living adjustments. It provides real, non-negligible value to sit in the same room as your coworkers. If companies want to reap that value though, they are going to have to pay for it. I think the days of setting up shop in downtown SF and just expecting talent to show up are over.
If you want to have people go to the office you need to pay them for the time to commute to that office. There is negative value to requiring people be in the office, especially given all these companies have opted for open plan BS - every study ever performed has found open and “shared” office plans reduce productivity, reduce collaboration, reduce morale, and increase disease. The value businesses get from putting…
Three guys stuck on a desert island stumble across a magic genie, who agrees to grant them each one wish.
The first man wishes to be home with his family, his wish is granted.
The second man wishes to be in Vegas with lots of money, his wish is granted.
The third man says "I'm really lonely now... I wish those guys were back here with me"
Re: Apple, SpaceX, Microsoft return-to-office mandates drove senior talent away
#33Re: Apple, SpaceX, Microsoft return-to-office mandates drove senior talent away
#34I think the outcome of all of this is going to be much more aggressive cost-of-living adjustments. It provides real, non-negligible value to sit in the same room as your coworkers. If companies want to reap that value though, they are going to have to pay for it. I think the days of setting up shop in downtown SF and just expecting talent to show up are over.
> It provides real, non-negligible value to sit in the same room as your coworkers Please cite a reputable source for this unsubstantiated and unsubstantiatable claim. eg: to me it provides a negative value (commute, noise, lack of my cat). To my employer it also provides negative value: my lower productivity, my much higher chance to GTFO to a more sane workplace. I can and do communicate with my coworkers over slac…
My counter to this - why do people pay to go to a concert when they can just watch a video? Do you not pay to fly to places that you could see in pictures? Do people not find some sort of value in this? And would you need to find a "reputable" source to prove it?
Clearly there are some amount of intangibles that the corporations care about, otherwise why would they bother with RTO at all instead of just firing everyone and offshoring the entire team? This is kind of the argument we are making for them.
Re: Apple, SpaceX, Microsoft return-to-office mandates drove senior talent away
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why would they have to live in downtown LA?
Presumably they have to be physically present within a few miles of downtown LA daily
Do you presume that because you don’t know anything about LA? Downtown LA is a specific place, and SpaceX is not located there.
Re: Apple, SpaceX, Microsoft return-to-office mandates drove senior talent away
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
When I interned at MS in 2021, I was forced to be remote. I sat in calls with heavily-accented people with crying babies in the background. It was unbelievably bad. I was catching every third word from my “mentor”. That’s why I’m not there today. (I turned down a full time offer)
Sounds like you would prefer a in person job. The question is not “do some people prefer offices”, the problem is “some people prefer offices and then require everyone else to be there to support them as well”
Since the purpose of a company is to function as a whole, and not to accommodate individual employees, the actual question and issue at hand is whether companies and company teams function better working remotely or working in office. This is also a matter not simply of the state of being in office, but of office work. Coming to the office to only talk to remote employees is not office work, but remote work with more steps. Office work isn't possible unless the team is present.
Re: Apple, SpaceX, Microsoft return-to-office mandates drove senior talent away
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It provides real, non-negligible value to sit in the same room as your coworkers Please cite a reputable source for this unsubstantiated and unsubstantiatable claim. eg: to me it provides a negative value (commute, noise, lack of my cat). To my employer it also provides negative value: my lower productivity, my much higher chance to GTFO to a more sane workplace. I can and do communicate with my coworkers over slac…
My counter to this - why do people pay to go to a concert when they can just watch a video? Do you not pay to fly to places that you could see in pictures? Do people not find some sort of value in this? And would you need to find a "reputable" source to prove it? Clearly there are some amount of intangibles that the corporations care about, otherwise why would they bother with RTO at all instead of just firing everyo…
Why? Preferences. And I don’t mind if YOU go to the office. I mind if you make me do it. I have voted with my feet on this issue before and I would again.
Re: Apple, SpaceX, Microsoft return-to-office mandates drove senior talent away
#38All the more reason to have a union.
These employers are certainly coordinating on wages, RTO policy, etc. They do it via third party compensation research firms. It's suspicious that people downvote your suggestion that workers also coordinate.
Just in case people don’t take that claim seriously: https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jo...
Re: Apple, SpaceX, Microsoft return-to-office mandates drove senior talent away
#39I know people that were having friends scan their badge to meet company guidelines on return to office (their manager and teams were okay with remote work). But then Amazon added cameras on badge scans from what I heard.
Re: Apple, SpaceX, Microsoft return-to-office mandates drove senior talent away
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sounds like you would prefer a in person job. The question is not “do some people prefer offices”, the problem is “some people prefer offices and then require everyone else to be there to support them as well”
Since the purpose of a company is to function as a whole, and not to accommodate individual employees, the actual question and issue at hand is whether companies and company teams function better working remotely or working in office. This is also a matter not simply of the state of being in office, but of office work. Coming to the office to only talk to remote employees is not office work, but remote work with more…
Which means you are making the assumption that working in an office is better, so you need to be able to back that up.
I could just as easily ask why everyone is having to go to an office to accommodate people who can only work in office environments. Especially given the overwhelming evidence that office environments reduce productivity, morale, and employee health?
You're just repeating the "I can't do my job unless I'm in an office, therefore I need everyone else to spend hours every week coming into an office to coddle me". Me not spending hours of unpaid time coming to the office does not prevent you from going into an office. You requiring me to drive for hours to come to the office has a direct and measurable cost, that solely benefits you.
It does not benefit productivity. It does not benefit morale. It actively harms the health of everyone, including you.
> Office work isn't possible unless the team is present.
Well yes, you've just said "everyone being in the office is only possible if everyone is in the office". My job, and the job of most people in tech (or jobs where being in the office is not required to work), is not to heat a seat in an office.
The fact that you use work as a proxy for a social life, or find it necessary to interrupt other people who are working, does not mean that being in an office is necessary to do our jobs. It means it is necessary for you to do your job.
So please stop presenting your own requirements as if they (1) apply to everyone universally, and (2) supporting your requirements is free for everyone else. (1) is demonstrably false, (2) is just selfish - why do you get to demand your coworkers give up a significant fraction of their lives and a significant amount of money to support your requirements?