Often we wonder what distinguishes humans from other animals. Measurement and optimization. Do other species measure, and optimize? Others use tools, but do they optimize?
Eh this seems a lot less interesting than language and laughter
Timekeeping Before Clocks
31–40 of 81 posts
Re: Timekeeping Before Clocks
#32Often we wonder what distinguishes humans from other animals. Measurement and optimization. Do other species measure, and optimize? Others use tools, but do they optimize?
Ants, of course, famously optimize. I think most creatures optimize somehow, I mean doing things wastefully is way to end up with an energy deficit, aka starve.
Humans have an interesting tendency to bump themselves out of local optima, via instincts called “boredom” and “curiosity.” These are not strictly human traits I think, but humans tend to get bored more often than other creatures, tend to accumulate large amount of resources which allow them to follow their curiosity a bit further, and are very good at communicating the results of this boredom.
Re: Timekeeping Before Clocks
#33Often we wonder what distinguishes humans from other animals. Measurement and optimization. Do other species measure, and optimize? Others use tools, but do they optimize?
I give you slime molds: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29114686
Re: Timekeeping Before Clocks
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you're underselling the accomplishment of determining some of these things, particularly predicting eclipses. And I think there's quite a bit to be said about novel applications that emerge out of tracking the sun, like announcing seasons for citizens to help know when to plant, reap, store, etc. to manage agriculture across empire. Often they amazing thing was taking a small thing and spinning into a massive…
One of the most impressive aspects of Babylonian and Chinese eclipse predictions was simply the social organization that was required to collect the necessary data. These records were collected almost continuously over centuries. The Babylonian astronomical records which span around seven centuries and are arguably the longest continuous scientific program any civilization has produced.
It then helped establish the study of the precession. Hipparchus used the Babylonian astronomical information to look into changes over hundreds of years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_astronomy#Influence...
> In 1900, Franz Xaver Kugler demonstrated that Ptolemy had stated in his Almagest IV.2 that Hipparchus improved the values for the Moon's periods known to him from "even more ancient astronomers" by comparing eclipse observations made earlier by "the Chaldeans", and by himself. However Kugler found that the periods that Ptolemy attributes to Hipparchus had already been used in Babylonian ephemerides, specifically the collection of texts nowadays called "System B" ....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_precession and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipparchus
> Earlier Greek astronomers and mathematicians were influenced by Babylonian astronomy to some extent, for instance the period relations of the Metonic cycle and Saros cycle may have come from Babylonian sources (see "Babylonian astronomical diaries"). Hipparchus seems to have been the first to exploit Babylonian astronomical knowledge and techniques systematically.
> ...
> Hipparchus probably compiled a list of Babylonian astronomical observations; Gerald J. Toomer, a historian of astronomy, has suggested that Ptolemy's knowledge of eclipse records and other Babylonian observations in the Almagest came from a list made by Hipparchus. Hipparchus's use of Babylonian sources has always been known in a general way, because of Ptolemy's statements, but the only text by Hipparchus that survives does not provide sufficient information to decide whether Hipparchus's knowledge (such as his usage of the units cubit and finger, degrees and minutes, or the concept of hour stars) was based on Babylonian practice
Re: Timekeeping Before Clocks
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is a scene in that recent shogun series where a team performs a raid. The leader sends the team in in small waves and “times” each groups entrance by counting rhythmic taps on his shoulder. I thought it was such a great detail to include. Of course rhythm would be the measure of time without a watch to look at.
One of the medieval time measurements were standard prayers - a Pater Noster is about the same amount of time each time, and a decade of a rosary for a given person will be pretty consistent.
Two more modern anecdotes of using songs for rhythm or timing:
The ideal pace for CPR chest compressions is pretty much exactly Stayin' Alive by Bee Gees. Or if you like darker humor, Another One Bites the Dust by Queen.
At the peak of COVID-19, the recommended duration for hand washing was Happy Birthday twice.
Re: Timekeeping Before Clocks
#36I sometimes watch those TV shows about ancient civilizations. They often talk about "astonishing" astronomy they used. In reality, all they did was track the sun. This can be done simply by putting a vertical stick in the ground, and marking the path the tip of the stick traces in the ground. This way, the calendar and solstices can be accurately determined. The shows will also talk about the "amazing" technology tha…
Those kinds of shows can be sensationalized and shallow, but if you're interested in learning more in depth about ancient astronomy (shameless plug) I have been doing a podcast on the subject. So far I've covered the astronomy of the Babylon, Greece, Rome, India, prehistoric Europe, Subsaharan Africa, and am currently five episodes into the astronomy of premodern China. https://songofurania.com
Thanks for sharing. Just started listening
Re: Timekeeping Before Clocks
#37Timekeeping leading up to the marine chronometer is also very interesting. Note that none of the timekeeping devices mentioned in the article would work very well at sea, making it impossible to accurately determine your longitude. Solving that proved to be extremely difficult. https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/harrisons-clocks-longit...
> John Harrison was a carpenter by trade who was self-taught in clock making. During the mid-1720s he designed a series of remarkable precision longcase clocks. These clocks achieved an accuracy of one second in a month, far better than any clocks of the time. Wow. I own Tissot and Casio hand clocks and both are significantly worse precision. Are there any available clocks with that precision? Of course with GPS, WiF…
> Are there any available clocks with that precision?
Citizens says ±1s/year with their Caliber 0100:
* https://www.citizenwatch-global.com/the-citizen/lineup/cal01...
* https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/citizen-eco-drive-caliber-...
Solar powered as well.
It should be noted that Harrison's watches were low-volume productions, so could be tuned very accurately—and their accuracy was a matter of life and death for ships and their crew. Most mechanical watches 'normal' people can get nowadays are produced at much higher volumes, and so aren't adjusted as much—especially since few people demand it and are willing to pay for it:
* https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/how-accurate-should-your-m...
The Harrison watches/clocks were built for the British government/Navy, so were fairly price insensitive (military procurement and such).
Being 1 minute off in time throws off distance by 15 nautical miles (~28 km), so being off by a second can cause about 500m worth of position inaccuracy.
Also: it may not be a big deal if your clock/watch drifts as long as it does so at a known, consistent rate which you can adjust for.
Re: Timekeeping Before Clocks
#38Fascinating article. This has inspired me to make a sundial that works inside my NYC apartment. Ideally, there's some reflective device pointed outside and some warping that happens to allow the sundial to work inside.
Maybe you can use a window?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jlcarmichael/albums/7215768048...
Re: Timekeeping Before Clocks
#39Not to be pedantic but I was genuinely confused by this statement:
> He lived and wrote in the late 200s and early 100s BCE
Shouldn't this instead be phrased as:
> He lived and wrote in the early 200s and late 100s BCE
He was born in 254 BCE and died in 184 BCE, he lived from the mid 200s BCE, started writing in the _early_ 200s BCE, and died in the _late_ 100s BCE.
Re: Timekeeping Before Clocks
#40I sometimes watch those TV shows about ancient civilizations. They often talk about "astonishing" astronomy they used. In reality, all they did was track the sun. This can be done simply by putting a vertical stick in the ground, and marking the path the tip of the stick traces in the ground. This way, the calendar and solstices can be accurately determined. The shows will also talk about the "amazing" technology tha…
> They still had no idea what the sun, moon, and planets were,
The composition of celestial bodies is useless trivia until you have some very modern material and energy sciences that might start turning to them for inspiration. There will almost certainly be a collapse of the modern world, and losing that information will be the very very least of our problems.
> nor even the layout of the solar system.
Depending on which civilizations you're talking about and how ancient you mean, the paths of visible roving bodies (planets) were actually pretty well known in many places for thousands of years. The models used to anticipate positions were often more convoluted than ours, but projected space and heliocentrism are ultimately just an optimization that wasn't obvious, necessary, or meaningful given what little practical use there was to the paths of those planets until very recently.
What those pop history shows mostly achieve is just reminding people that astronomical and scientific knowledge didn't start in the European Enlightenment, which is the takeaway that many people (in the US, especially) carry after high school. They're not really meant for someone like yourself. There's much more you might actually be impressed by in academic history/archaeology/anthropology and even in certain written pop history sources.