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Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

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Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#31

Post by jkaplowitz »

malka wrote: post #20
jkaplowitz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is new again, actually - if you opted out previously, you have to opt out again to stay opted out, according to the wording of the new terms. One opt out per Discord account, if you have multiple, in each case within 30 days of registering that account or of April 15, 2024, whichever is later . This provision does not make reference to the first time you accepted a version of these terms with an arbitration clause…

Thanks for the info. Just in case, I setup a script to send a daily mail to arbitration-opt-out@discord.com

Risky … if it’s automated, they could argue that you’re not actually making a conscious decision and/or not actually doing it yourself, claiming that it doesn’t apply or isn’t an unambiguous indication of your intent to knowingly opt out of whatever the next revision of the arbitration clause may be. It’s far more unclear how that would play out in (US) court than with a manual opt-out once per account per terms of service revision.

Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#32

Post by malka »

jkaplowitz wrote: post #31
malka wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the info. Just in case, I setup a script to send a daily mail to arbitration-opt-out@discord.com

Risky … if it’s automated, they could argue that you’re not actually making a conscious decision and/or not actually doing it yourself, claiming that it doesn’t apply or isn’t an unambiguous indication of your intent to knowingly opt out of whatever the next revision of the arbitration clause may be. It’s far more unclear how that would play out in (US) court than with a manual opt-out once per account per terms of s…

Your are right. I actually should add a new script for a daily mail every time there is any update to the tos page.

Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#34

Post by ncallaway »

appplication wrote: post #29

As a consumer, I’m not sure I understand the disdain for forced arbitration. I understand discord desires it because it helps prevent rulings becoming case law. But I am going through forced arbitration right now in a personal lawsuit, and part of it is bleeding to a third party that does not arbitrate, which means real court. By all accounts I have been assured by my lawyer we are in a better position pursuing arbit…

Forced arbitration reduced your options. You can agree to arbitration if both parties desire it when a dispute arises.

One of the biggest consumer protections that a forced arbitration clause can kill is a class action lawsuit. If a corporation harms each consumer for $.30, there’s no real way to bring an individualized case over that. A class action is a viable option to hold the corporation to account.

Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#35

Post by foota »

koolba wrote: post #30
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what we need, yeah. I don't have a problem with binding arbitration if parties with equal leverage agree to it, but it should be flat out illegal to require it as terms of employment or part of ToS.

> … or part of ToS. Let’s forget employment for a sec and just look at a product’s terms. Why can’t you just not use the product? “It’s popular” is hardly an excuse for something new if you’re picking the platform. If it’s an existing community and you feel forced to join a closed system with too many rules for your tastes, skip it. The community will suffer and hopefully they change to something you’ll like. But if…

Avoiding a large part of society isn't a practical response.

Besides, many may not know of the forced arbitration, despite it negatively impacting them. People are famously bad at these coordination problems.

Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#36

Post by appplication »

ncallaway wrote: post #34
appplication wrote: post #29

As a consumer, I’m not sure I understand the disdain for forced arbitration. I understand discord desires it because it helps prevent rulings becoming case law. But I am going through forced arbitration right now in a personal lawsuit, and part of it is bleeding to a third party that does not arbitrate, which means real court. By all accounts I have been assured by my lawyer we are in a better position pursuing arbit…

Forced arbitration reduced your options. You can agree to arbitration if both parties desire it when a dispute arises. One of the biggest consumer protections that a forced arbitration clause can kill is a class action lawsuit. If a corporation harms each consumer for $.30, there’s no real way to bring an individualized case over that. A class action is a viable option to hold the corporation to account.

That makes sense, thanks for the context. Though, I’ve been a part of maybe 10 class actions in my life so far, and all of them amounted to less than $50 each. I suppose they are more effectively punitive to the corp than compensatory to the aggrieved.

Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#37

Post by koolba »

foota wrote: post #35
koolba wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> … or part of ToS. Let’s forget employment for a sec and just look at a product’s terms. Why can’t you just not use the product? “It’s popular” is hardly an excuse for something new if you’re picking the platform. If it’s an existing community and you feel forced to join a closed system with too many rules for your tastes, skip it. The community will suffer and hopefully they change to something you’ll like. But if…

Avoiding a large part of society isn't a practical response. Besides, many may not know of the forced arbitration, despite it negatively impacting them. People are famously bad at these coordination problems.

> Avoiding a large part of society isn't a practical response.

In my personal experience, it’s worked out fine.

> Besides, many may not know of the forced arbitration, despite it negatively impacting them. People are famously bad at these coordination problems.

Not reading the thing you’re agreeing to is not an excuse. Otherwise it’d be an out for any contract.

And again, consumers can vote with their feet by only agreeing to terms that are understandable.

Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#38

Post by eadler »

appplication wrote: post #29

As a consumer, I’m not sure I understand the disdain for forced arbitration. I understand discord desires it because it helps prevent rulings becoming case law. But I am going through forced arbitration right now in a personal lawsuit, and part of it is bleeding to a third party that does not arbitrate, which means real court. By all accounts I have been assured by my lawyer we are in a better position pursuing arbit…

I wrote this to explain the problem

https://arbitrationinformation.org/docs/problems/

Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#39

Post by Akronymus »

koolba wrote: post #30
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what we need, yeah. I don't have a problem with binding arbitration if parties with equal leverage agree to it, but it should be flat out illegal to require it as terms of employment or part of ToS.

> … or part of ToS. Let’s forget employment for a sec and just look at a product’s terms. Why can’t you just not use the product? “It’s popular” is hardly an excuse for something new if you’re picking the platform. If it’s an existing community and you feel forced to join a closed system with too many rules for your tastes, skip it. The community will suffer and hopefully they change to something you’ll like. But if…

I know a few students who are required to use discord due to the teacher distributing courae work over it.

Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#40

Post by noodlesUK »

koolba wrote: post #37
foota wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Avoiding a large part of society isn't a practical response. Besides, many may not know of the forced arbitration, despite it negatively impacting them. People are famously bad at these coordination problems.

> Avoiding a large part of society isn't a practical response. In my personal experience, it’s worked out fine. > Besides, many may not know of the forced arbitration, despite it negatively impacting them. People are famously bad at these coordination problems. Not reading the thing you’re agreeing to is not an excuse. Otherwise it’d be an out for any contract. And again, consumers can vote with their feet by only ag…

Countries regularly legislate and regulate against various forms of unfair terms in contracts, ranging from the deceptive and absurd to fairly mundane things. You can’t enter into contracts requiring illegal behaviour for instance. This is true in the U.S. and all other countries that I’m aware of.

In the UK and other European countries, particularly regarding consumer goods or other kinds of contracts with an inherent asymmetry of negotiating power, there are lots of things you can’t agree in contracts, such as disclaiming general fitness for purpose and safety.

Deciding that you can’t agree away your rights to redress through the judicial system seems like a reasonable extension of these kinds of rules.

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