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The "it" in AI models is the dataset

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Re: The "it" in AI models is the dataset

#31
Has anyone tried removing an entire concept from a dataset and seeing if the LLM can reason its way into the concept?

I think that would be a really cool experiment.

There are probably some really good candidate concepts that just take a small leap of reasoning to reach.

But off the top of my head maybe multiplication? Or the concept of zero. Maybe the wheel?

Edit: if anyone is interesting in doing this kind of stuff, hit me up. (Email in profile). I want to start doing these kinds of things as a side project.

Re: The "it" in AI models is the dataset

#32
post #31

Has anyone tried removing an entire concept from a dataset and seeing if the LLM can reason its way into the concept? I think that would be a really cool experiment. There are probably some really good candidate concepts that just take a small leap of reasoning to reach. But off the top of my head maybe multiplication? Or the concept of zero. Maybe the wheel? Edit: if anyone is interesting in doing this kind of stuff…

There was one where they tried to remove Harry Potter...

Who's Harry Potter? Approximate Unlearning in LLMs https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.02238

See also The Boy Who Survived: Removing Harry Potter from an LLM is harder than reported https://arxiv.org/abs/2403.12082v1

Re: The "it" in AI models is the dataset

#33

> It is a giant pain in the ass but you have to spend the time sitting in front of the screen going through the data and removing things and tagging things and making sure that the details are right. This is really what makes the good models good and the rest mediocre. In some other comment I read this. Sounds very much like a curation thing. And now I'm wondering; isn't this part already covered by a lot of human be…

"Fixing" low quality data with RLHF is a waste of time. By that point it's already poisoned the model distribution, and all you're doing is steering it away from catastrophic failure cases.

Start with the best data you can, and task train ("rlhf") behavior not preference.

Re: The "it" in AI models is the dataset

#34
post #15

Yi Tay's response (chief scientist at Reka AI, ex-Google Brain researcher): https://twitter.com/YiTayML/status/1783273130087289021 >not true, especially for language. if you trained a large & deep MLP language model with no self-attention, no matter how much data you'll feed it you'll still be lacking behind a transformer (with much less data). will it get to the same point? i don't think so. your tokens cannot even…

Yes, and note that in terms of different architectures, the author (James Betker) is talking about image generators, while when he's talking about LLMs they are all the same basic architecture - transformers.

Some tasks are going to be easier to learn that others, and certainly in general you can have more than one architecture capable of learning a given task, as long as it is sufficiently powerful (combination of architecture + size), and well trained.

That said, it's notable that all the Pareto optimal LLMs are transformer-based, and that in the 7 years since the attention paper (2017), all we have seen in terms of architectural change have been scaling up or minor tweaks like MoE and different types of attention.

How do you make a different architecture such as Mamba more competitive with transformers? Add some transformer layers to it (Jamba) !

So, yeah, as far as LLMs go, the precise model doesn't matter as long as it's a transformer, which isn't very surprising given what we know about how they work - primarily via induction heads. The lesson here isn't that architecture doesn't matter for LLMs, but rather that the architecture has to be a transformer! Data then becomes paramount, because the model learns the program (induction heads, etc) that runs on the machine (transformer) from the data.

No doubt there will be architectural advances beyond transformers, although few people seem to be currently looking for them, but I'm pretty sure they will still need something equivalent to the transformer's attention mechanism.

Re: The "it" in AI models is the dataset

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it make you sad? It seems intuitiv and simple. And in reality of course the optimisation part is not trivial. What would we better if the "it" was more complicated?

It used to be that people would get into these fields thinking ML would need specifically human insights, deep thinking, and philosophical insights about the nature of consciousness. You would get into natural language modelling because you had a deep love of language. Because you think you're close to figuring language out in a systematic way, with just a few years more study. There's a certain sadness, I think, in…

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Re: The "it" in AI models is the dataset

#36
post #19

Yes, and it's what people seem to ignore when they talk about dethroning GPT4 as the top LLM. It's good data expressly developed for training the behaviors they want that keeps them ahead, all the other stuff (other training and filtering web data) has much less of an impact. See also "You won't train a better model from your desk: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40155715

I don't think GPT4 is the top LLM, it's good at coding and good at understanding poorly written prompts but its high level prompt following and creativity are not great. GPT4 likes to answer a particular way and when your question matches up with that it'll seem very smart, but when it doesn't the rails it is on are very obvious.

Re: The "it" in AI models is the dataset

#37
post #15

Yi Tay's response (chief scientist at Reka AI, ex-Google Brain researcher): https://twitter.com/YiTayML/status/1783273130087289021 >not true, especially for language. if you trained a large & deep MLP language model with no self-attention, no matter how much data you'll feed it you'll still be lacking behind a transformer (with much less data). will it get to the same point? i don't think so. your tokens cannot even…

Well, both can be true if you interpret the "it" as "the secret sauce / competitive advantage". A good architecture is a necessary but not sufficient condition for success, but everybody uses more or less the same currently, so data makes the difference. Until the next improvement in architecture.

I do argue that the IT is the architecture. We have pretty much had all the data that these LLMs were trained on for a long time. The game changer was the architecture not the data. Unless of course you are on the code is data camp ;).

Re: The "it" in AI models is the dataset

#38
That is what I have repeated so many times in the last 2 years over and over. I consider Yi Tay's response [1] a mere technicality that is actually irrelevant. What is relevant is how predictable "interpolatable" the data are, how predictable we are.

1. https://twitter.com/YiTayML/status/1783273130087289021

Re: The "it" in AI models is the dataset

#39

This makes me sad, not because I disagree with it, but because it's basically common wisdom in the statistical and ML communities (of practitioners). In my experience, the only people who think architecture/model choice makes a huge difference are n00bs and academics. That being said, definitely if you use a linear model (like lasso) vs a tree based model (like XGBoost), you'll see differences, but once you have a fl…

>In my experience, the only people who think architecture/model choice makes a huge difference are n00bs and academics.

There are countless competitions, etc. on Kaggle, AICrowd, or other platforms with an enforced standardized data set. Every entrant uses the same data set and there's a huge difference between the best and worst submissions.

Re: The "it" in AI models is the dataset

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it make you sad? It seems intuitiv and simple. And in reality of course the optimisation part is not trivial. What would we better if the "it" was more complicated?

It used to be that people would get into these fields thinking ML would need specifically human insights, deep thinking, and philosophical insights about the nature of consciousness. You would get into natural language modelling because you had a deep love of language. Because you think you're close to figuring language out in a systematic way, with just a few years more study. There's a certain sadness, I think, in…

> It used to be that people would get into these fields thinking ML would need specifically human insights, deep thinking, and philosophical insights about the nature of consciousness.

What's sadder is coming into a field pre-deciding that the way you approach it "is the right way" and can't tolerate that different mindsets can also get results.

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