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The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

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Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#31

Post by toyg »

paganel wrote: post #25
toyg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mafia always enjoyed some support among people who benefit from it, which is why they make this sort of populist move in the first place. That doesn't mean they are as legitimate as a proper democratic government. It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae…

At this point I'd take the feudal Lord a hundred times over any democracy, at least the feudal lord had the obligation to provide housing and a piece of land for his people/peasants, unlike democracy, which by this point is just an empty concept used to keep the current hegemonic system in place (and I could understand how come what they call democracy is still popular in places like this one here, places where peopl…

Lol, this hyperbole is laughable. Feudal lords were obliged to provide shit for peasants; if such peasants rebelled, 9 times out of 10 they would be massacred on the spot. The degree of arbitrary rule they expressed is something we just lost knowledge of, in the first world; but go ask Africans or South Asians from regions infested by warlords, to get a taste.

What about one day you send your daughters to school, but it's the day Mr Lord decides he needs some new sex slaves, and your daughters just disappear? What about Mr Lord needs some cannon fodder for some hopeless adventure, so he just raids your village, rapes a few women, chains you and your kids, and leads you to inevitable death? That's just Another Day in Feudalism for you.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#32

Post by lifestyleguru »

My favorite part about Italy is how most sought for mafia bosses are "hiding" for their entire lives in their home regions and villages. The degree of "ignoring the obvious" is only comparable with the worst religious extremist, but also every country has is own equivalent of "ignoring the obvious".

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#33

Post by doggacula »

actionfromafar wrote: post #23
lelanthran wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you actually trying to argue in support of the mafia? No, I'm saying that it's not exactly the same as fuedal overloads are. Organised crime are a business, first and foremost, and like all businesses (whether legal or not) focuses on profit.

Feudal overlords operated under similar constraints as the mafia today. They couldn't be too bothersome, or the peasantry could support a rival.

In a Hollywood movie, sure, with obligatory leading warrior woman role. In real history, not so much. With very rare exceptions (like England [1], and some Eastern European lands were at least some of peasants were militarized) peasantry had little military value [2], and therefore little factor in any rivalry. Also feudalism had more strict rules in regard to competition for resources compared to modern criminals. A rival had to appear first, and in most cases needed to have rights at least somehow proven by genealogical tree, and old agreements. While it did happen, it couldn't just because of peasants.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assize_of_Arms_of_1181

[2] https://academic.oup.com/book/39423/chapter-abstract/3391457...

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#34

Post by samuelec »

xrd wrote: post #28

One of my favorite books is Excellent Cadavers. It's about two Italian judges that systematically root out corruption in Sicily, and pay for it with their lives. It is an incredible history of the path of fascism to the modern day Mafia. And the most interesting thing for me was how connected the Mafia are to the top levels of Italian government. Andreotti was definitely complicit.

Without having to go that far in the past, there are many evidences that Berlusconi had deep connection with mafia. Instead for Andreotti there are no evidence nor proofs, Andreotti was a very intelligent man and if he did or not something nobody was ever able to prove it.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#35

Post by lou1306 »

sparrowInHand wrote: post #16
hellerve wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend visiting the Ecomuseo in Palermo [1] if you ever have the chance. They examine, among other things, the lasting impact of the subpar building of now mostly crumbling structures by the Mafia that still litter the cities of Sicily. Yes, the mafia built housing, but it’s not the kind of social housing we might hope for—it’s mostly slum-like. Of course, the city of Palermo is also EXTREMELY densely populated—…

Unpopular but, the south of italy is a middle eastern country, in all metrics.

Unpopular? One of Italy's most popular historians likes to joke that, back in ancient Rome, any budding politician would have taken a post in Syria or Lybia over one in Gaul or (shudders) Britannia any day of the week. And every time, the audience just laughs and nods. The Mediterranean was a highway, not a frontier.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#36

Post by paganel »

toyg wrote: post #31
paganel wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I'd take the feudal Lord a hundred times over any democracy, at least the feudal lord had the obligation to provide housing and a piece of land for his people/peasants, unlike democracy, which by this point is just an empty concept used to keep the current hegemonic system in place (and I could understand how come what they call democracy is still popular in places like this one here, places where peopl…

Lol, this hyperbole is laughable. Feudal lords were obliged to provide shit for peasants; if such peasants rebelled, 9 times out of 10 they would be massacred on the spot. The degree of arbitrary rule they expressed is something we just lost knowledge of, in the first world; but go ask Africans or South Asians from regions infested by warlords, to get a taste. What about one day you send your daughters to school, but…

> That's just Another Day in Feudalism for you.

I usually tend to forget that most of the people here have not read their history, comments like this one remind me of that. I recommend La société féodale [1] by Bloch, or the relevant volume from Histoire de la France rurale [2]

[1] https://www.amazon.com/La-soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9-f%C3%A9odale/dp/...

[2] https://www.editionspoints.com/ouvrage/histoire-de-la-france...

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#37

Post by mannykannot »

beAbU wrote: post #29
xandrius wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just like you have no idea how mafias operate. Cheap affordable housing from a government is absolutely not the same as cheap affordable housing from a criminal organisation.

No snark intended below: I'm genuinely curious what the difference is according to you. From where I'm standing I sometimes struggle to see the difference between my government and a mafia. They behave in uncanny similar ways.

At the scale seen in Palermo (though not only Palermo, by any means) it is effectively a government (and this point is an element of the article), but without a constitution (unless you count "submit to violence" as one) and sustained economically by extortion, corruption, and drug- and human-trafficking.

Lest this seems smug, let me say that, with SCOTUS struggling to find anything wrong in the events of January 6 2021, I am not feeling at all smug.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#38

Post by infecto »

mamonster wrote: post #21
toyg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mafia always enjoyed some support among people who benefit from it, which is why they make this sort of populist move in the first place. That doesn't mean they are as legitimate as a proper democratic government. It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae…

>It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" Well, the whole point of the Mafia is that it's a sort of reactionary movement to defeudalisation/uniformisation in places that are far away from where the power centralizes (the exact same reason why Yakuza started after the unification and why a lot of gangsters are from Kyushu). It also pisses me off that people use the word mafia inappropriatel…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_mafia

Should we update wikipedia?

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#39

Post by mamonster »

toyg wrote: post #31
paganel wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I'd take the feudal Lord a hundred times over any democracy, at least the feudal lord had the obligation to provide housing and a piece of land for his people/peasants, unlike democracy, which by this point is just an empty concept used to keep the current hegemonic system in place (and I could understand how come what they call democracy is still popular in places like this one here, places where peopl…

Lol, this hyperbole is laughable. Feudal lords were obliged to provide shit for peasants; if such peasants rebelled, 9 times out of 10 they would be massacred on the spot. The degree of arbitrary rule they expressed is something we just lost knowledge of, in the first world; but go ask Africans or South Asians from regions infested by warlords, to get a taste. What about one day you send your daughters to school, but…

>The degree of arbitrary rule they expressed is something we just lost knowledge of, in the first world

Actually, there are multiple areas in Europe that are now little different from feudal fiefdoms run by drag traffickers(13ème/15ème in Marseille comes to mind) and instead of doing anything about it politicians just pretend they don't exist.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#40

Post by Maken »

davedx wrote: post #3

Oh no, they built tons of cheap affordable housing. How terrible of them! I’d be interested to hear the viewpoints of Sicilians on this one

It's also falling apart, literally. I have been in Sicily and modern buildings, highways and bridges are in really bad shape due to faulty concrete. Closed roads and buildings wrapped in scaffolding everywhere.
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