Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A brief, weird history of brainwashing

technologyreview.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 56 posts

Re: A brief, weird history of brainwashing

#31

Post by jampekka »

card_zero wrote: post #28
jampekka wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this dictionary definition quite fitting: "2. any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, especially one based on repetition or confusion" https://www.dictionary.com/browse/brainwashing

Then you didn't find definition 1 quite fitting.

Not as snugly.

"a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs," fits very well. "originated in totalitarian countries" not so much, and "especially through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques" very little, although it's an "especially", so not a required feature.

The "originated in totalitarian countries" is a bit odd requirement for my taste. Of course, if one wants to use that definition, then by definition even "a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques" is not brainwashing if it doesn't originate from a country that is defined as totalitarian with some definition.

Re: A brief, weird history of brainwashing

#32

Post by Phiwise_ »

>But Hunter wasn’t just a reporter, objectively chronicling conditions in China. As he told the assembled senators, he was also an anticommunist activist who served as a propagandist for the OSS, or Office of Strategic Services—something that was considered normal and patriotic at the time. His reporting blurred the line between fact and political mythology.

Err...: http://jmc.stanford.edu/commentary/progress/venona.html

I get that expecting truly quality research work from Technology Review is an eggs-in-moonshine level fantasy, but it'd be nice to employ literally one editor who has read literally any of MIT's greatest researchers with all the ivy league cash they spend on fancy robots or buildings or whatever else.

Re: A brief, weird history of brainwashing

#34

Post by ninju »

spencerflem wrote: post #26
card_zero wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's also factually what you're trying to do right now, and what I'm trying to do back at you, but maybe we should call it "communicating" in this instance. Because brainwashing has a lot of connotations. That don't apply. You see.

fine- here's two more ways it fits: advertising is non-consensual, almost everyone would rather not see ads and not internalize its ideas advertising is precise and scientific, it is done by powerful groups at large scale and truthfully, if this comment was part of an astroturfing campaign by an agency if have no problem calling it a brainwashing attempt. or call it something else, its all semantics. murder if you're…

> advertising is non-consensual, almost everyone would rather not see ads and not internalize its ideas

Advertising, by product producers, on media platforms serves a purpose of informing the customers of what is available for purchase.

At times I will watch over the air TV, or other FAST streaming services, just to keep aware of what is new in the marketplaces

Re: A brief, weird history of brainwashing

#35

Post by janalsncm »

Modified3019 wrote: post #4

If you want to see effective brainwashing, you need to look for instances where Pavlovian conditioning and enhanced states of suggestion (essentially “hypnosis”, but think of the clinical definition, rather than stage performance tropes) are combined over the course of years in a way that self reinforces the thoughts to be held. Works best when the person is offered something that they think they need (validation, co…

A simpler example is to look at advertisements, which are a more acceptable form of propaganda. For example TV ads. A lot of what they say is a kind of fuzzy forgettable nonsense, but really pay attention to the underlying message of the ad and the techniques they use.

Re: A brief, weird history of brainwashing

#36

Post by spencerflem »

jampekka wrote: post #31
card_zero wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you didn't find definition 1 quite fitting.

Not as snugly. "a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs," fits very well. "originated in totalitarian countries" not so much, and "especially through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques" very little, although it's an "especially", so not a required feature. The "originated in totalitarian countries" is a bit odd requirement for my taste. Of course, if one wants to…

yeah, I think in retrospect maybe part of the confusion is that some people's definition of brainwashing is only the torture/drugs definition, while mine and yours presumably has always included propaganda and other purely psychological means.

But its hard to convince someone ads are brainwashing when to their mind its just completely obviously something else.

In the end its all language games anyways when we hopefully should all be able to agree that it's a problem that 20% of the GDP to be spent trying to control our thoughts

Re: A brief, weird history of brainwashing

#37

Post by pessimizer »

neild wrote: post #14
monkeydreams wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article literally refers to the case for which Stockholm Syndrome is named and offers a simple explanation; that torture and privation work to align a person's goals and motivations to minimise pain. I'm not sure what you are finding so contentious about this article. We have accepted that people under torture will admit to anything for centuries.

The article doesn't refer to that incident, so far as I can see. It does mention Patty Hearst, who was kidnapped a year after the Stockholm bank robbery. The term "Stockholm Syndrome" originates from a police consultant inventing a syndrome to diagnose a woman he had never met, in order to discredit her criticism of the largely incompetent police response to her and several other people being taken hostage by a bank…

They just did a documentary on the bank robbery, and as you watch it you get "Stockholm Syndrome," too. The West is just addicted to narratives of mind control and bewitchment, and people are easily convinced that any deviation from the designated norm is the result of evil forces taking control of people's wills through mysterious methods.

Africa has a very similar problem. Where Anglo-Europeans think that all deviant behavior is caused by mind control (by demons, Jews, Russians, alcohol, marijuana, the Chinese, Cambridge Analytics, etc.), large parts of Africa believe that all illness is the result of curses. When somebody gets sick and dies, they start looking for witches to kill.

Re: A brief, weird history of brainwashing

#38

Post by mgkimsal »

paulddraper wrote: post #18
jampekka wrote: post #9

About a fifth of the economic activity in the USA is brainwashing. And quite a bit of other activity, such as most consumer internet services, exist to facilitate this brainwashing.

(Tongue in cheek reference to marketing/advertising.)

Whose tongue? And whose cheek?

Re: A brief, weird history of brainwashing

#39

Post by FrustratedMonky »

2devnull wrote: post #7
monkeydreams wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article literally refers to the case for which Stockholm Syndrome is named and offers a simple explanation; that torture and privation work to align a person's goals and motivations to minimise pain. I'm not sure what you are finding so contentious about this article. We have accepted that people under torture will admit to anything for centuries.

I gave one quote that is an example of the lack of thought, here’s another, “by spending millions of dollars on research into manipulating the human brain. But while the science never exactly panned out, residual beliefs fostered by this bizarre conflict continue to play a role” In what sense did the science “not pan out”? What “residual beliefs” could she mean? The text implies that it’s the idea that the human brai…

This appears to be an overview article, just touching on a lot of subjects. Not a deep dive of any particular one. If they gave all the details of every idea in the article it would be 10x longer.

I would think for the 'deep dive' with details and citations, they want you to buy the book. This is just a teaser.

"Annalee Newitz is the author of Stories Are Weapons: Psychological Warfare and the American Mind, coming in June 2024."

Re: A brief, weird history of brainwashing

#40

Post by card_zero »

spencerflem wrote: post #36
jampekka wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not as snugly. "a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs," fits very well. "originated in totalitarian countries" not so much, and "especially through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques" very little, although it's an "especially", so not a required feature. The "originated in totalitarian countries" is a bit odd requirement for my taste. Of course, if one wants to…

yeah, I think in retrospect maybe part of the confusion is that some people's definition of brainwashing is only the torture/drugs definition, while mine and yours presumably has always included propaganda and other purely psychological means. But its hard to convince someone ads are brainwashing when to their mind its just completely obviously something else. In the end its all language games anyways when we hopeful…

Would you be OK with 1% of GDP?

But would you really be OK with some authority deciding how much gets spent on it? Or is the amount not the real issue?

There's an ad in the article itself: it was offering me 25% off a subscription to MIT Technology Review during Earth Week. I didn't ask to see that information. It was trying to get me to do something I wasn't very interested in. Is that advert part of the problem, or is it one you'd arbitrarily allow?

Post reply on HN