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Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#31

Post by burnte »

GTP wrote: post #19
qchris wrote: post #12

> Framework will need to step up its game, especially if it wants to sell more laptops to businesses—a lucrative slice of the PC industry that Framework is actively courting. This line really resonated with me. I own a 12th-gen Framework laptop personally, and have enjoyed using it enough that I wanted to have one at work as my existing machine is aging out. Like many businesses, my org requires some paperwork ("tele…

I'm not sure businesses would be interested in a modular laptop, I always assumed they prefer to just buy new ones when the time comes rather than having someone spending the time to service them for the needed uogrades. Currently, they don't even bother trying to reinstall Windows, which I think it would solve most of the performance problems that surface after about 3 years of operation of a laptop (assuming it's u…

Actually modular ones would be GREAT for repairablity in fleets. I could ship them to my tier 1 guys and have them swap out a part rather than going back to Lenovo or Dell and taking weeks.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#32

Post by BadHumans »

jlkuester7 wrote: post #21
BadHumans wrote: post #10

I'm still bullish on Framework but the quality control issues I have seen from the Framework 16 are unacceptable for a device that cost as much as it does. They have also reused elements from the older Framework laptops that they should not have, namely the smaller keyboard and the smaller trackpad. I hope they pull it together because I want them to succeed.

Ignorant question here, but I have been wondering if they keyboard/trackpad would be upgradable in the future? Still rough to release a laptop at such a high price-point with sub-par UX, but it seems possible that they could release better components for the 16 in the future, right?

They are replaceable and they could release a larger keyboard and trackpad in the future.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#33

Post by binkHN »

I seriously considered a Framework for a recent laptop purchase, but, ultimately, went with the venerable ThinkPad. That said, all is not rosy here either. BIOS updates to resolve issues still don't come out fast enough and there still are nagging firmware and driver issues that have not been resolved 6 months after the device was released.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#34

Post by gorjusborg »

I have bought two Framework 13 laptops, and have been happy with them overall.

I love their vision of a repairable laptop, and have replaced parts on them, without issue. That is a great achievement.

I have had issues with drivers, and specifically had to reinstall windows to reflash firmware to get a new touch pad to work in linux. Bummer, but I'm also running on the fringe a little, so I accept that.

Overall, the experience has been positive, but I can just imagine how much of a tidal wave of support they must be experiencing. That's not to give them a pass. I hope they improve, but they are trying to do an audacious thing.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#35

Post by ang_cire »

I actually really love my Framework 16 (which I'm writing this on), but the integration with Ubuntu (which is their supported Linux distro) was far less performant than I expected. I ended up installing Win11Pro on it, and since then I've been cherry (apart from being on Windows).

I really do hope they begin to offer more customization and expansion options soon; I'd love to support them some more, but there's not anything that I need from them, since I got a couple extra modules when I ordered it.

My biggest gripe is actually the LED array modules, because they don't have any convenient software to utilize them if I don't want to write python in my freetime. They're soliciting feedback on what people want out of them, but I definitely get the impression they're just planning to have users create the apps. Stuff like battery percentage or scrolling marquee should have been there from the get-go.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#36

Post by wizardwes »

Macha wrote: post #15
gravescale wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does seem a little strange considering that they have a microSD module which is electrically almost exactly the same thing (the only difference is the mechanical write protect toggle). Then again they have a miniscule engineering team but they have made two laptops with some pretty non-conventional design aspects and a bunch of modules including a swappable GPU and (one of?) the first 180W USB-C power supplies the…

> Considering the relative rarity of SD cards compared to microSD, other than photo- and videographers who aren't really a core demographic, welded as they often are into the Mac ecosystem, I can see why it's not the biggest priority and it certainly doesn't smell of dishonesty. I mean, why would they even be up to shenanigans over SD cards of all things? I do wonder how true it is that the "put microSD cards in your…

In the 3D printer market it has been pretty common to be moving micro SD cards around for that. A few printers use USB A, and there are mods to swap to full size SD cards/internet connectivity for getting your files to your printer, but micro SD was the standard until just recently.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#37

Post by dv_dt »

GTP wrote: post #19
qchris wrote: post #12

> Framework will need to step up its game, especially if it wants to sell more laptops to businesses—a lucrative slice of the PC industry that Framework is actively courting. This line really resonated with me. I own a 12th-gen Framework laptop personally, and have enjoyed using it enough that I wanted to have one at work as my existing machine is aging out. Like many businesses, my org requires some paperwork ("tele…

I'm not sure businesses would be interested in a modular laptop, I always assumed they prefer to just buy new ones when the time comes rather than having someone spending the time to service them for the needed uogrades. Currently, they don't even bother trying to reinstall Windows, which I think it would solve most of the performance problems that surface after about 3 years of operation of a laptop (assuming it's u…

A lot of the IT depts in medium to large size companies I've talked to routinely do repairs on their hardware, e.g. swapping out laptop motherboards, memory, drives, etc as part of maintenance (on and off warranty). Hardware explicitly designed for changing major components easier would probably save them time and money.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#38

Post by dheera »

qchris wrote: post #12

> Framework will need to step up its game, especially if it wants to sell more laptops to businesses—a lucrative slice of the PC industry that Framework is actively courting. This line really resonated with me. I own a 12th-gen Framework laptop personally, and have enjoyed using it enough that I wanted to have one at work as my existing machine is aging out. Like many businesses, my org requires some paperwork ("tele…

> we're not actively trying to backdoor you

What is there to backdoor? Why can't businesses just pay money and get product and not overcomplicate this?

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#39

Post by paulmd »

multimoon wrote: post #9
mouse_ wrote: post #2

For a product whose main draw is the ability to have whatever connectors you want, the lack of a plain SD card module (a standard feature on macbooks, so standard in fact that they TRIED to get rid of it and had to backpeddle; an extremely rare move for Apple) destroyed my confidence in this company. I don't trust them.

I don’t own a framework device as it’s not my kind of niche, but this seems like a really weird place to throw around the word “trust”. That implies you believe they are doing something shady or nefarious by not making a sd card module - which they aren’t. This is just an old fashioned business decision where it’s not the financial priority right now. What I think you mean to say is that it’s a feature required for y…

Honestly it is a trust issue. I almost bought a framework laptop last year. People pitched it as a seriously viable alternative to the MacBook and applied social pressure to give it serious consideration. I realize now that it would have been a serious waste of a large amount of money and time and yes, that is a trust issue.

And you can say “well that wasn’t the official framework org” but they’re kinda holding themselves out as a serious contender (marketing on LTT etc) yet apparently don’t have things as basic as working Linux drivers (in their officially supported choice of distro)! I think there is indeed a general belief among the public that you need to at least get that far before holding yourself out for public consumption, as a non-beta product, yeah. When you do those sorts of things it’s clearly not being held out as an enthusiast device for tinkering etc, and then people will have some (reasonable) expectations that it’s gonna actually work. If not, arguably it’s FTC time at that point.

It’s kinda the same as AMD graphics drivers on windows… having the fans repeatedly insist they’ve never had a driver issue for 10 years now (when Vega, rdna1, and rdna3 all had major issues that lasted a significant amount of time) does destroy trust among the public when they try it and see it’s not true. Nothing feels worse than recommending them to a friend based on seeming internet consensus and having them have problems over the advice I gave them. Spent a lot of time trying to debug remotely and get their 5700xt working etc, never did, they ended up selling and buying a 2060S that worked perfectly, and I’ve never trusted the fans again.

The boy who cried wolf is a cultural touchstone for a reason, we don’t like being called to action for something that turns out to be untrue. And spending a lot of money to learn that lesson generally does create a trust issue that turns people off with these brands.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#40

Post by cjk2 »

I actually have no problem with this because Dell/Lenovo/HP software and firmware is a mess. I suspect the issue is that the underlying platform is shit and a mess and this is being reflected in the software.

At least Framework are trying, unlike Dell/Lenovo/HP.

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