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Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

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31–40 of 52 posts

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#31

A general comment about playing Chess. I've been playing since I was a kid. I like the game. Well, sort of. I've probably logged nearly 10K games on the playchess server. One day, while having a conversation about Chess with another (older) engineer he made a comment that really stuck in my mind, he said: "All you accomplish by playing a lot of Chess is to become a better Chess player". His comment had a point to it.…

Indeed, but you can say this about pretty much any hobby.

What does playing Guitar get you beyond getting better at playing guitar? Snowboarding? Rock Climbing? Traveling the world? Building perfectly accurate models of 19th century warships?

There are a million things that people can take up a a hobby, and even dedicate their entire life to. All of them have your same points in common that, unless you manage to become one of the top 100 people in the world at it, it's not really going to ever benefit you beyond your own personal satisfaction.

And yet, I defy you to find a single person who doesn't have at least one of these time wasting hobbies. It's part of what makes us human.

My advice is to not sweat it so much and go play Chess if it makes you happy.

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#32
post #16

A general comment about playing Chess. I've been playing since I was a kid. I like the game. Well, sort of. I've probably logged nearly 10K games on the playchess server. One day, while having a conversation about Chess with another (older) engineer he made a comment that really stuck in my mind, he said: "All you accomplish by playing a lot of Chess is to become a better Chess player". His comment had a point to it.…

I think this rings true at the highest levels of skill for most activities. The better you get, the more specialized your skillset has to become to continue winning, and the less applicable it becomes to other things. Regardless, I think there's something to be said for competing at a high level. It provides more than just entertainment, as some skills do translate if you let them: The confidence you gain by knowing…

"""To evaluate brain activity in players of differing ability, Ognjen Amidzic and colleagues measured so-called gamma-band activity in the brains of 10 grandmasters and 10 amateurs, using a new magnetic imaging technique known as magnetoencephalographic recording. While test subjects played against computers, the researchers studied which parts of their brains experienced gamma-bursts during the five seconds following the computer's move. They found that whereas the amateurs' brains exhibited more gamma-bursts in the medial temporal lobe, grandmasters had more gamma-bursts in their frontal and parietal cortices.

The team proposes that the use of the frontal cortex by the grandmasters�who have memorized thousands of moves� indicates that they recognize known problems and retrieve solutions for them from their memories. Use of the medial temporal lobe by the amateurs, in contrast, suggests that these players are analyzing unknown moves and forming new long-term memories.""" http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=brain-study...

I think what your parent meant is that at some point Chess becomes a glorified dictionary lookup. An exercise in memoization.

Many, but not all board games end up being about memorizing which strategies work and which don't. This is especially true in case of deterministic, turn-based perfect knowledge games. Tic-tac-toe has been solved, period. Checkers has been solved. Chess will be next, because it's next in terms of complexity. Go is also a solvable game, but it will take a while.

I think this is the more true the more rigid (deterministic) a game is. Legos and Minecraft are at the opposite end of the spectrum. They even lack a victory condition, but they're all about making new combinations.

Chess may boost analytical skills and foresight up to a point, but as a war game it has become very abstract and detached from reality. It seems to be inspired by the era of melee combat, specified battlefields and powerful rulers.

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#33

A general comment about playing Chess. I've been playing since I was a kid. I like the game. Well, sort of. I've probably logged nearly 10K games on the playchess server. One day, while having a conversation about Chess with another (older) engineer he made a comment that really stuck in my mind, he said: "All you accomplish by playing a lot of Chess is to become a better Chess player". His comment had a point to it.…

Indeed, but you can say this about pretty much any hobby. What does playing Guitar get you beyond getting better at playing guitar? Snowboarding? Rock Climbing? Traveling the world? Building perfectly accurate models of 19th century warships? There are a million things that people can take up a a hobby, and even dedicate their entire life to. All of them have your same points in common that, unless you manage to beco…

Snowboarding and rock climbing improves your health, so it's absolutely not wasted time. You get the benefit of doing something fun, while also making you a healthier person.

You're still right, though. Play chess if it makes you happy.

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#34

A general comment about playing Chess. I've been playing since I was a kid. I like the game. Well, sort of. I've probably logged nearly 10K games on the playchess server. One day, while having a conversation about Chess with another (older) engineer he made a comment that really stuck in my mind, he said: "All you accomplish by playing a lot of Chess is to become a better Chess player". His comment had a point to it.…

I used to play lots of chess, then stopped when I thought the game was taking too much of my time and couldn't give me much more.

Still I think I learned a lot by going to chess tournaments. Most of that you'd probably learn by playing any competitive sport. I transformed from someone who resigned inferior positions easily into a stubborn player who didn't give up. It was a good experience to learn to handle the pressure at tournaments when the time on your clock is running out and there are lots of people around you watching.

Moreover, I find it very interesting who can win when there are many players of the same skill level competing. That's very psychological. Some people are better at it naturally, but it's amazing what you can learn.

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#35
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, but you can say this about pretty much any hobby. What does playing Guitar get you beyond getting better at playing guitar? Snowboarding? Rock Climbing? Traveling the world? Building perfectly accurate models of 19th century warships? There are a million things that people can take up a a hobby, and even dedicate their entire life to. All of them have your same points in common that, unless you manage to beco…

Snowboarding and rock climbing improves your health, so it's absolutely not wasted time. You get the benefit of doing something fun, while also making you a healthier person. You're still right, though. Play chess if it makes you happy.

True, though there are better ways to improve your health if that's your goal.

If you want to be truly good at either one of those things (to the level that the grandparent talks about where he's a "walking database"), you're going to do all sorts of things that are not particularly beneficial to your health.

Next time you meet a really dedicated snowboarder, have him do a couple deep knee bends and take a listen. If you ever meet me, have me show you my knuckles, which I can no longer straighten nor bend completely after 15 years of dedicated finger training for Rock Climbing. Watch me do a one-arm pullup, then laugh as I fail to run a mile because I'm not actually, in any normal sense of the word, in shape.

Pretty much all the hobies I mention above, and most you could think of, require you to specialize in ways that make them unsuitable training for the general case area in which they improve you. Just like Chess sorta makes you smarter and piano sorta makes you more dextrous, training for a sport just sorta makes you healthy. But mostly it makes you a better snowboarder, climber, etc.

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#36

A general comment about playing Chess. I've been playing since I was a kid. I like the game. Well, sort of. I've probably logged nearly 10K games on the playchess server. One day, while having a conversation about Chess with another (older) engineer he made a comment that really stuck in my mind, he said: "All you accomplish by playing a lot of Chess is to become a better Chess player". His comment had a point to it.…

I've had a similar experience, in school I got hooked on chess. Having an unfortunate tendency to try to master anything I suck at that I find interesting I dedicated quite a lot of time to learning chess, playing in the swedish masterships and even attending a special high school with chess on the curriculum.

The thing is though with chess (as with anything I'd guess) the first 20% of skill can be really hard to acquire since you need to "get started". The next 60% is usually a challenge that's fun and stimulating. Going beyond that it gets rough (unless youre exceptionally talented). I think chess is especially bad from that aspect, at higher level the amount of pure database knowledge you have to memorize is tremendous and IMO takes some of the fun out the game. Fischer tried to solve this by inventing a version where you randomized the position of the pieces each time. Games like go also seems much better since it's more about skill and intuition than rote memorization.

A big part of becoming great at chess is actually retraining the part of the brain that remembers faces to absorb board positions. I'm not talking about absolute recall , but a grand master has seen so many games that he can "intuit" a board drawing from his experience.

"Good hobbies", IMO, form either new brain connections , improve body coordination or just generally improve mental or physical health. I'd be surprised if learning chess didn't change the brain pathways in some ways that are beneficial but it probably doesn't increase much after a certain skill level. Learning to play an instrument, juggling, snowboarding , meditating, jogging are probably all "better hobbies" quantiatively

Anyways, I realized that while playing at a top level was probably achievable, the effort wasn't worth it. Working with computers and playing chess is a little more sitting down than I'd like in my life and time was better spend moving around and enjoying the company of others :)

I wish I could spend chess "just for fun" but alas it's hard to do at that level. Better to play some of the more clever board games where memorization isn't such a large component and you actually socialize as well

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#37
post #30
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern chess matches like this require a huge amount of preparation. Computers are much better than even the best humans at chess, and they are (in the last decade or so) the number one tool for grandmasters when preparing. Each GM has a support team, which at this level includes HPC compute specialists. This match includes two players that over a year, beyond rigorous practice, include in-depth computer analysis of…

When we have computers that can number crunch enough to beat the best humans in a game, I can't help but think that human competition in that game is no more exciting than humans competiting to do something like multiplying a bunch of large numbers together. Of course, I do believe that all human mental work is just number crunching (i.e. Turing computation), so this idea would seem to apply to all human mental compe…

Is athletics uninteresting because we have cars (or bicycles, or horses)?

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that you don't learn how to be a good person or do anything terribly useful by studying chess, but how is playing music or building cool things with Legos substantially different? Just do what you please.

The point is that the extremes are bad. If someone spent ten hours a day doing nothing but building legos the observation would be exactly the same: It's not good for you. Chess can become a sick obsession. I know. I've been there. I have played chess for 12 hours straight on more than one occasion. It leaves you rattled and with nothing good to show for it. Contrast that to spending twelve hours with a mixed bag of…

"extremes are bad"

I disagree, a little. Extremes are good, because a bunch of worthwhile things get accomplished by people going to extremes.

As far as personal costs of going to such extremes go - they are difficult to judge objectively, from the outside. A study I recall claimed that elite athletes are "happiest", based on self-assessment, and it further speculates that one reason for this is because they have a clear goal and a clear way to advance it.

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#39
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is exactly the same for competitive gaming, and for everything else that's competitive I think. At some point, I was competing at a national level (France) on Warcraft III, I realized that if I were to be in top8 or above, I had to play 50 hours / week. That's a full-time job, and the level of specialization and skill specificity you need is really high. I chose to work on my studies instead. Now I sometimes play…

It's minor, but competitive gamers generally do at least acquire mechanics that can be used for other games. I'm not sure if chess is like that.

As far as that is true, it's because all RTS or FPS games are essentially the same. I say this as a once avid chess player and gamer.

Re: Chess World Championship 2012: A First Win

#40

A general comment about playing Chess. I've been playing since I was a kid. I like the game. Well, sort of. I've probably logged nearly 10K games on the playchess server. One day, while having a conversation about Chess with another (older) engineer he made a comment that really stuck in my mind, he said: "All you accomplish by playing a lot of Chess is to become a better Chess player". His comment had a point to it.…

>> One would be surprised to learn just how bad some really good Chess players are about other things in life.

Really? Is Chess somehow different from any other activity? My teacher escaped from Kazakhstan simply because he could play Chess really well. Does the fact he chose an activity you have decided you don't like have any bearing on what type of person he is? Of course not.

>>In other words, you need to turn a fun game into a job.

To excel at something, you need to work at it; what is your point?

>> What they have to become in order to play at these levels is, to me, the absolute opposite of what the game felt like when I was a kid.

How would you know? Have you ever played at a high level or known a world champion?

>>In order to become truly competitive in Chess you have to become a human database.

This is demonstratebly false, rote memorization is meaningless in chess. Openings are the LEAST productive element of the game you can spend time on. Only ideas and concepts matter at all. A chess master does not automatically have a greater capacity to memorize than an amateur.

I have never seen a comment of such amazing paternalism directed at any other activity. How does studying music help one in politics or business or even as a lawyer? The answer: Just as much as chess. Simply the self-discipline required to play on such a high level must have some benefit. Even if everything you said was true, so what? Why does one take up activities except to interest herself personally? At least with Chess you are guaranteed to see moves or games of spectacular beauty. It does take time to develop a level of intution where one can recognize such beauty.

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