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New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

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Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#31
Perhaps it needs to be made very clear, in case there are some that still are confused about why many people (who study non-technical subjects) choose to go to college (aside from many of the well-known ones like the promises of how it would lead to a 1950s style middle-class lifestyle; because their parents made them; because it's rite-of-passage; or because their friends are there), for /whatever/ major they choose (or are able to handle): it feels like they have to in order to even be in the running for jobs, because HR uses the presence of a degree, _any_ degree as a first-line FILTERING mechanism. In down economic times especially, when you're getting 200 resumes for a job that could be done by someone with a 4th grade education, you need some way to cut down that pile and that is one of the easiest ways to do it.

Viewed in that light, you can see why so many people are very, very upset by all this. Politicians, the media, their parents, their friends have all told them "get a degree or you'll be a [metaphorical] fry cook" and now it's "get a degree if you want to be able to even get a job as a fry cook." Rephrased, it's "a bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma", and so it becomes about the fact that you got the degree at all that matters. If you don't, there are 199 people (who have the same (lack of) experience you do), but do have the degree. Theirs goes in the "scan again to filter for some other reason" pile, yours goes in the trash.

As far as the the ones who racked up debt AND didn't finish: they've got the worst of both worlds.

Forget about majors, forget about "putting in dues", and start thinking about a country and society (I'm talking about the US here) that tells you that you MUST go to college in order to get a job, forces you into debt to do so (not everyone is grant material - the recent stats say 90% of grads take on debt) and then tells you there aren't enough jobs for everyone (for the well known reasons, but I'd put automation at the top of the list these days. Recent stats say 3+ people are available for work for each job opening) and you'll understand why these people are mortified.

It's also clear where all this leads, to the dismay of many: a guaranteed income society. We'll be forced to accept that many, perhaps even MOST people will not be needed for work. There will be nothing for them to do, and nothing we can do about it. The people that do work will be the robot designers, maintainers, politicians, managers, personal service people, and some miscellaneous workers. Everyone else will be part of a "sports, arts, and leisure" society. That might be 50-100 years out, but it's coming, and no one should have any illusions about what that means. Our conception of our societies as defined by work will need to change, and we'll need to accept that people who do not work are not lazy, ne'er do wells or parasites, but that they are the result of the transition to post-work (and hopefully post-scarcity) societies. The calls for bringing back factory jobs, re-empowering unions, etc. are short-sighted and misguided; there's no turning back the tide, and we should adjust our thinking accordingly.

Finally, it should be clear that many right here on this site, and those that they work with are the ones helping to create this new world. An automated one, an easier one, and hopefully, a better one.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#32
post #3

Should note that it's "attended college" but not necessarily graduated, and that makes a huge difference.

This is hugely important, and seems to have been glossed over. "attending college" != "graduating from college". College is, for better or worse, a binary signal. You either graduated or you didn't.

When you apply for an Engineering license, the Engineering board doesn't care that you completed 100% of your Engineering courses but never received a degree because you forgot to take History 101.

Because of this, it's even worse in that it's a sunk cost. Better to go ahead and drop out earlier rather than later, because not only will you not have a degree, you'll have wasted that many years for no measurable improvement in hiring potential.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#33
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In certain fields the "go into debt to pay for an education which will help you get a good job" strategy works well. Unfortunately, governments and educational institutions have taken "college graduates earn X% more and have a Y% lower unemployment rate" statistics and pretended that they apply to all college graduates, regardless of their field. Only a fool would think that a degree in underwater basket weaving woul…

It hasn't been too long since I was starting college. For freshman (in the US at least), colleges encourage students to try lots of classes and take their time picking a major. Many schools don't require students to declare a track until they are in their sophomore year -- halfway through a four-year program! Many can be completed in 2-3 years (even "hard" majors, like physics), and the schools design the degree prog…

Difficulty is the deciding factor because the goal is the credential.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#34
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know close to 50% of new grads are unemployed right? This is millions of kids a year who were told to get educated and now have no job waiting for them when they do. Acting like millions of kids should just get a job mopping floors and drop the entitlement is super ignorant and borders on dangerous. I would put a lot of this blame on the fact that tax cuts for the rich that were supposed to "raise demand for work…

I think the OP's comment held a seed of wisdom, even though it wasn't properly expressed. The point I got from his post was that recently graduated and unemployed kids should stop waiting to be offered jobs that obviously don't exist anymore, and bring out the entrepreneurial spirit that made this country great (a long time ago). The point is not to mop floors for $20, but to create a website (essentially a business)…

"he point is not to mop floors for $20, but to create a website (essentially a business) that solves somebody else's pain. That is the essential idea. Find a pain, fix it, charge enough to make a profit and move on to the next pain point that needs fixing."

This sounds like a Ponzi scheme. Surely its not the case that millions of people can create millions of websites that solve each others problems.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#35
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It hasn't been too long since I was starting college. For freshman (in the US at least), colleges encourage students to try lots of classes and take their time picking a major. Many schools don't require students to declare a track until they are in their sophomore year -- halfway through a four-year program! Many can be completed in 2-3 years (even "hard" majors, like physics), and the schools design the degree prog…

Economics is the wrong reason to go to college. If you go to college to learn you'll be in much better shape. Even if you study basket weaving.

But you can be smart about this by hedging your bets and still achieving the same effect. A degree in basket weaving and a degree in Engineering will both serve to expand your abilities by teaching you critical-thinking skills, teaching you how to communicate more effectively, and, in short, providing you with a framework for "learning how to learn". But one will make it far easier to get a job than the other.

My rule of thumb has always been this: Write down all of the things that you're interested in and would enjoy spending four years or so learning about. Then, from that list, pick the ones that are also employable to some extent. At the same time, don't simply pick a degree solely because of employment prospects, since markets are cyclical, even in classical STEM fields.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#36
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know close to 50% of new grads are unemployed right? This is millions of kids a year who were told to get educated and now have no job waiting for them when they do. Acting like millions of kids should just get a job mopping floors and drop the entitlement is super ignorant and borders on dangerous. I would put a lot of this blame on the fact that tax cuts for the rich that were supposed to "raise demand for work…

I think the OP's comment held a seed of wisdom, even though it wasn't properly expressed. The point I got from his post was that recently graduated and unemployed kids should stop waiting to be offered jobs that obviously don't exist anymore, and bring out the entrepreneurial spirit that made this country great (a long time ago). The point is not to mop floors for $20, but to create a website (essentially a business)…

This is a correct interpretation, and better expression of what I was trying to say -- essentially, there are still lots of basic problems that need fixing. A college graduate is well prepared to market themselves intelligently, in a trustworthy manner that can win confidence and work, even if the work is somewhat undesirable.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#37
post #12

For some people a college degree can lead to a crippling level of entitlement, and unwillingness to do the kind of work they hoped to escape by attending college. A college degree doesn't preclude someone from waiting tables, cleaning up messes and answering phones. Though many graduates seem to be confused about this. For unemployed colleges grads -- here's a rudimentary formula for success. Start a free website wit…

Maybe you live in a place that has a huge undersupply of janitorial labor, but most people do not and it has nothing to do with whether or not they went to college.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#38

Perhaps it needs to be made very clear, in case there are some that still are confused about why many people (who study non-technical subjects) choose to go to college (aside from many of the well-known ones like the promises of how it would lead to a 1950s style middle-class lifestyle; because their parents made them; because it's rite-of-passage; or because their friends are there), for /whatever/ major they choose…

> start thinking about a country and society (I'm talking > about the US here) that tells you that you MUST go to > college in order to get a job, forces you into debt to do so

This is an old game played by most societies known as the 'Debtors Game' (see the book Games People Play). It's a way to force younger people to work, which is ironic today, given there is no work to have so it's just creating a new lower class of those in servitude. It's the new serfdom.

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#39
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know close to 50% of new grads are unemployed right? This is millions of kids a year who were told to get educated and now have no job waiting for them when they do. Acting like millions of kids should just get a job mopping floors and drop the entitlement is super ignorant and borders on dangerous. I would put a lot of this blame on the fact that tax cuts for the rich that were supposed to "raise demand for work…

>Deciding that millions of new graduates aren't getting jobs because they are lazy is one of the more ignorant and lazy arguments I've ever seen. How do you interpret the linked article then? "Mopping floors" doesn't literally mean mopping floors, it means settling for the jobs that are available, not the jobs you want.

Your presumption is that there are jobs available; according to the bureau of labor statistics, as of March 2012 there were 3.4 unemployed people for every job opening (roughly double the ratio at the start of the recession back in December 2007).

Re: New Normal: Majority Of Unemployed Attended College

#40
post #12

For some people a college degree can lead to a crippling level of entitlement, and unwillingness to do the kind of work they hoped to escape by attending college. A college degree doesn't preclude someone from waiting tables, cleaning up messes and answering phones. Though many graduates seem to be confused about this. For unemployed colleges grads -- here's a rudimentary formula for success. Start a free website wit…

You know close to 50% of new grads are unemployed right? This is millions of kids a year who were told to get educated and now have no job waiting for them when they do. Acting like millions of kids should just get a job mopping floors and drop the entitlement is super ignorant and borders on dangerous. I would put a lot of this blame on the fact that tax cuts for the rich that were supposed to "raise demand for work…

There are many things to blame for a lack of jobs. But the jobs are gone, many to other countries, and are not coming back soon. College graduates are facing a different reality than existed even 10 years ago. College experience counts for less now than possibly ever before. That's the new reality, and only way to live with that is get creative, determined and ready to go to work whatever is required.
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