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Navy cancels ship briefings after damning internal report

politico.com

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Re: Navy cancels ship briefings after damning internal report

#31

Post by nradov »

ryandrake wrote: post #23
nradov wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the reason is that the only way to get the acquisition of a major new weapons system approved by Congress is to drastically underestimate the cost. This gives Congresspeople political cover to vote aye. Everyone involved knows that costs will explode later, and by that time the program has become too big to fail. Everyone knows we need a new frigate and it's too late to start over from scratch without endange…

> The national security establishment is getting increasingly freaked out about the risk of a naval war with China. I guess military professionals might know things we don’t, but doesn’t a hot war with China strike everyone else as utterly ridiculous? China’s economy is so inextricably intertwined with those of the rest of the world, it would make no sense for either side. Mutually assured economic destruction. Yes,…

A war in Europe probably seemed equally ridiculous in 1914, and yet it happened. The concern is that Xi Jinping has purged all rivals and has assumed personal control of all key strategic decisions. We don't know what's really going on but he seems increasingly prone to miscalculations and unwise decisions. There are reasons to suspect that yes-men in the inner circle are telling him what he wants to hear and he is acting based on faulty data. Thus there is a very real risk regardless of how silly the situation might seem to an unbiased observer.

Re: Navy cancels ship briefings after damning internal report

#32

Post by tw04 »

Solvency wrote: post #12
SignalM wrote: post #8

Worked in one. They are safety nightmares. They give safety bonuses if “nothing is reported” so nothing gets reported. Working conditions suck.. you spend your time begging for AC in a metal can in 100 degree heat (outside) on top of that the craziest thing was how subcontractors made money. I was in test so we wondered why certain runs of cable were way out of spec. Turns out subcontractors are paid by the foot to i…

so why does the government/navy incentivize such bloated inefficiency, slop, and misuse of resources/time/money/energy?

They don't. Op fabricated the story, as pretty much anyone in the Navy would confirm for you.

Source: several relatives in the navy working on ships, also have dealt with the contractors in question that run cable. Contractors absolutely do not get to determine the route cabling takes. There are endless reasons that would be insanity starting with basic security of the ship. Do you think random contractor X gets to loop cable through the reactor room because it'll make him a bit more money?

Re: Navy cancels ship briefings after damning internal report

#33

Post by jandrewrogers »

ungreased0675 wrote: post #2

>But today, the version being built at a shipyard in Wisconsin shares only 15 percent commonality with the original design How is this in any way acceptable? The procurement strategy was to buy an existing design in order to speed up the process. I would bet tradeoffs were made doing it that way instead of a clean sheet design. Now, after the fact they throw away the design and make something new? The Navy is likely…

The fig leaf of an "existing design" is often used for new procurement because Congress is less likely to interfere with political considerations if it is viewed as an upgrade instead of a new system, under the theory that working within the constraints of an existing system limit flexibility with respect to Congressional politicking. Upgrades are also assumed to be cheaper than new designs, whether they are or not. The boundaries are fuzzy but there are many examples of new systems packaged as upgraded old systems for the sake of procurement efficiency.

Re: Navy cancels ship briefings after damning internal report

#34

Post by Jtsummers »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #25
jki275 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of that is accurate other than the fact it might be hot if the AC isn't running, and there are a lot of perfectly legitimate reasons why the AC might not be running. We actively encourage reporting of all incidents, and cable runs are not determined by subcontractors trying to find the longest route. Cable runs are determined by drawings done by the Navy and they're installed in accordance with the drawings or p…

So, you worked with them on the same projects, and that's how you know they are lying about their own firsthand experience?

The paid by the foot thing is why I am doubtful of OP's story. There are drawings of where cables go in every aircraft and ship and building owned by DOD. Their accuracy with respect to reality, of course, is not always spectacular but these drawings existed before construction began. The subs routing cables arbitrarily through the ship is not likely to go unnoticed, and is better described as "sabotage" as it makes future maintenance and repairs nearly impossible.

"We're paid by the foot" is exactly the kind of snarky answer I'd expect someone to give if asked, "Why are you doing it that way?" when "that way" is the way the drawings lay out and the person asking isn't a supervisor or monitor of your work.

Re: Navy cancels ship briefings after damning internal report

#35

Post by Jtsummers »

nradov wrote: post #31
ryandrake wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The national security establishment is getting increasingly freaked out about the risk of a naval war with China. I guess military professionals might know things we don’t, but doesn’t a hot war with China strike everyone else as utterly ridiculous? China’s economy is so inextricably intertwined with those of the rest of the world, it would make no sense for either side. Mutually assured economic destruction. Yes,…

A war in Europe probably seemed equally ridiculous in 1914, and yet it happened. The concern is that Xi Jinping has purged all rivals and has assumed personal control of all key strategic decisions. We don't know what's really going on but he seems increasingly prone to miscalculations and unwise decisions. There are reasons to suspect that yes-men in the inner circle are telling him what he wants to hear and he is a…

> A war in Europe probably seemed equally ridiculous in 1914

Europe leading up to WWI was not exactly a land of peace and harmony. There were a number of hot wars in the years leading up to WWI.

Re: Navy cancels ship briefings after damning internal report

#36

Post by [deleted] »

alephnerd wrote: post #9
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can't stand in the way of Progress It looks like we closed them after the end of the Cold War [1]. This wasn’t an idealistic pursuit, just banal cost cutting to disarm the nation. Given increased tensions, it would make sense to reverse and begin re-integrating Navy owned and operated shipyards. (I’m also noticing that most of the shipyards were on the Atlantic, with the Washington shipyard being one of the few…

> This wasn’t an idealistic pursuit, just banal cost cutting to disarm the nation Specifically, it was Clinton's SecDef Perry's Last Supper meeting with defense contractors in 93 that destroyed the entire base we had in the US [0] "I asked [former SecDef] Les [Aspen] to call a meeting of the senior defense industry officials where we had a simple message to them: The first was that the budget was not only down, it wa…

[deleted]

Re: Navy cancels ship briefings after damning internal report

#37

Post by viciousvoxel »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #26
ryandrake wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The national security establishment is getting increasingly freaked out about the risk of a naval war with China. I guess military professionals might know things we don’t, but doesn’t a hot war with China strike everyone else as utterly ridiculous? China’s economy is so inextricably intertwined with those of the rest of the world, it would make no sense for either side. Mutually assured economic destruction. Yes,…

The point isn’t the war. The point is the impossibility of war. If China gets a radical leader, they might start a hot war with the US over Taiwan or something. But not if the US has them clearly outgunned. It’s as much in China’s interest as the US’s.

This. Being on equal-or-better footing acts as a deterrent. Same reason countries don't keep all of their warfare technologies secret, e.g. the DoD makes press releases about new technologies and will publish just enough specs for an adversary to figure out that it defeats some advantage they had thought they had.

Re: Navy cancels ship briefings after damning internal report

#38

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

I know what this. I just haven’t figured out to make money on it yet.

Complexity crisis. It’s happening everywhere. Boeing didn’t turn into a bad engineering company, they put a noose on their own necks because they could. Navy is doing the same thing.

Everyone is. That is the real reason we have toasters and teapots on the internet.

Re: Navy cancels ship briefings after damning internal report

#39

Post by maxerickson »

Retric wrote: post #14
Solvency wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so why does the government/navy incentivize such bloated inefficiency, slop, and misuse of resources/time/money/energy?

It’s really difficult to impose efficiency on outside contractors without them cutting corners. Congress doesn’t want the government to do anything in house.

Wouldn't requiring that "cable runs" "meet spec" impose efficiency?

(for the definition of efficiency that is worth caring about anyway)

Re: Navy cancels ship briefings after damning internal report

#40

Post by maxglute »

Sometimes I wonder if US leadership, above the paygrade of naval leadership, assume that large surface combatants likely won't be survivable in a peer war. Then they'd do exactly what they're doing now... stall naval projects and pivot.

There's a lot of motivated naval lobbying decrying the state of US ship building, but we can see in semi that US leadership fine with pouring 100s of billions in urgent industrial policy. Maybe US ship building is actually that broken, but IMO that wouldn't stop the spigot from flowing. At some point, it's hard to differentiate if current state of naval procurement is incompetent by malice/design. It's hard to explain how little is being done.

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