Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why it didn't happen in 1949 then, or in 1959, or in 1969, or in 1979? What have changed? I can see a clear link between perestroikas and ethnic cleansings, but perhaps you can reason that away.
It started in the 70s, which is in the Wikipedia page. Bulgaria did not meaningfully have 'perestroika' which you can google your way to. I don't think I have to reason anything away if you're simply unfamiliar with the history - you can just look it up or at a minimum, read the links we're talking about.
The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"
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Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"
#32One of the first Sovirt Union's general purpose computers, the MESM[1], was built in some pre-revolutionary mansion outside Kiev. Romania also had significant semiconductor industry and DDR too, such as Kombinat Mikroelektronik "Karl Marx" Erfurt. I'm disappointed the article is so eager to tag late communist Bulgaria "repressive". The same myopic vision where Bulgaria can be of no significance, but also where social…
Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"
#33Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
It started in the 70s, which is in the Wikipedia page. Bulgaria did not meaningfully have 'perestroika' which you can google your way to. I don't think I have to reason anything away if you're simply unfamiliar with the history - you can just look it up or at a minimum, read the links we're talking about.
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That might be a good place for us to wrap up but no, it doesn't agree with you since you seemed to think it happened after communist rule and had something to do with perestroika. Neither of these are true. The lack of familiarity is hardly some mortal sin but it puts you in a very poor (while undoubtedly easily correctable) position to assess the repressiveness or lack thereof of the Bulgarian communist regime.
Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
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despite myself hearing about the event for the first time today. That might be a good place for us to wrap up but no, it doesn't agree with you since you seemed to think it happened after communist rule and had something to do with perestroika. Neither of these are true. The lack of familiarity is hardly some mortal sin but it puts you in a very poor (while undoubtedly easily correctable) position to assess the repre…
The fact that you've used this transition period event as your prime example suggests you cannot solidly back up your claims about communist period.
I am ready to be corrected but you will have to actually make your claim.
In case you water it down to "simple" forced assimilation: so did Denmark (in Greenland) and France and of course Turkey. If they'll all repressive by your standards then all right - not the worst company to be in. If only socialist Bulgaria is repressive to you then you're employing double standards.
In fact, it would be interesting to hear your assesment of Turkey v.s. Bulgaria W.R.T. repressiveness. Kurds et al.
Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
despite myself hearing about the event for the first time today. That might be a good place for us to wrap up but no, it doesn't agree with you since you seemed to think it happened after communist rule and had something to do with perestroika. Neither of these are true. The lack of familiarity is hardly some mortal sin but it puts you in a very poor (while undoubtedly easily correctable) position to assess the repre…
It happened in the middle of the transition period between uncontested communist rule and EU's unicorns and rainbows, and was not characteristic of what communist period's steady state looked like. It was characteristic of its failure modes, I would not contest that. The fact that you've used this transition period event as your prime example suggests you cannot solidly back up your claims about communist period. I a…
It didn't. I don't know where you got that idea, it's not borne out by anything reasonable you can read about it. The relevant Bulgarian expression (with an appropriate side of Turkish) is хал хабер си нямаш.
Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"
#37In case anyone doesn't know - Bulgaria is the most beautiful country in Europe and is rich with cultural history. Ruins and artefacts everywhere. Please come and check it out - Sofia is amazing this time of year.
I have loved everything I've learned about it since, even thinking of learning Bulgarian!
What a cool place, your country.
This post for me is an instance of that weird effect when once you start looking into something you see it everywhere..
Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"
#38Oh, yes, kind of:
> “The [US] capitalists behaved like socialists while the [Soviet] socialists behaved like capitalists.” In other words, the United States’ internet precursor ARPANET was achieved through strong government support and subsidies, whereas the Soviet attempts were torpedoed by the “self-interest” of its bureaucrats and experts. The Bulgarian case is different because it did succeed—partly due to the fact that Petrov’s protagonists were able to outplay the capitalists at their own game. They copied the code and then rewrote it.
It is the end of history predicted by Karl Marx, but it had played in a different way that he thought. It played in a way Fukuyama described in retrospect. Capitalism is no longer "pure" capitalism, and communism is no longer "pure" communism. The thesis and the antithesis mated and gave rise to something in between. Or rather they morphed both, but the transformation of capitalism was more successful. Though China probably wouldn't agree with this last statement.
But looking at USA it use a lot of government funds spent on different projects with a goal to spur up progress. ARPANET is just one example, the other one is Apollo project or commercialization of space which is going on right now. And we can see in China a free market or at least market that is much more free than in USSR.
It seems it is not the end of history, it is more like an end of history. But I agree with Erik Hoel[1] it is no good in trying to apply Hegel to history, but his models are good to talk about politics.
[1] https://www.theintrinsicperspective.com/p/the-end-of-online-...
Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"
#39Really cool to see other attempts at historically understanding Warsaw Pact and fUSSR tech industries. Every other treatment I've ever seen for describing the Soviet computing and internet development has always just been a lazy "well it wasn't innovative like silicon valley" which, while not necessarily wrong, sounds more like awkward and insecure attempt at justifying our own processes, and also isn't all that desc…
It depends on the decade and if we're are talking about the Soviet Union, keeping in mind that Warsaw Pact countries also had their own trajectories and specifics, like the article mentions. By the 1970s the Soviets themselves realized they were lagging behind, and decided to mostly "borrow" Western designs. So it isn't just us judging them from an orange forum years later, it was a judgement they came to on their own at that time. In the end they were cloning the computer systems of the West, not vice-versa. And, if we know anything about the Soviets, is they did not like to lose face. Everything from space to sports was always them showing off their superiority, so the decision to concede and start copying computer systems designed by the "evil capitalists" likely wasn't done lightly.
Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"
#40> On the ruins of Bulgaria’s communist utopian cyber-economy, the most prolific and feared virus writer of all, named the Dark Avenger, emerged to wreak havoc on the world’s computers at the moment Francis Fukuyama had proclaimed the end of history. Was it really? Oh, yes, kind of: > “The [US] capitalists behaved like socialists while the [Soviet] socialists behaved like capitalists.” In other words, the United State…