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Male archetypes in fairy tales

sharonblackie.substack.com

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Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#31

Post by hk__2 »

DarkNova6 wrote: post #13
blueflow wrote: post #11

Keep in mind that masculinity and femininity are constructed - they only exist because some properties associated with each other. Because of its construction, its an opinion, not a fact. What one considers masculine or feminine is basically arbitrary and random and everyone is free to disagree. An evil spirit could claim that none of the mentioned archetypes is gender-specific at all and they would not be provable w…

How could it be a construct of our modern times if their themes are consistent throughout history of humankind? Delving into mythology and legends which explore the nature of our kind, the description of male and female is fairly consistent. You might as well say "everything is subjective, there is no truth".

> How could it be a construct of our modern times if their themes are consistent throughout history of humankind?

OP didn’t talk about "our modern times".

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#32

Post by roenxi »

david-gpu wrote: post #27
roenxi wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it that... If you go with ye old class analysis, you'll notice the big threat to the status of VHNW is a free and fair free market. They benefit a lot from regulation and handouts to preserve the status quo. If you look at what plays out in practice, the rational move for the ultra-wealthy is to quietly align with the poor against the middle class. It isn't too blatant, but quietly just make it harder for pe…

> I suspect a "white's only" association wouldn't disgust many people, on the basis that we can have black or girl-only associations and they are fine. It would still be racist, obviously Well, it would disgust me . I have so-called mixed-heritage children and I dread the day when I have to explain to them that they can't join this or that activity with their friends because they have the wrong skin color or the wron…

As long as you are consistent and are disgusted by all race based organisations equally then cool. But, realistically, there are race based associations. Quite a lot of them. You're going to have to tolerate them - although I agree they are counterproductive.

And I don't see why a white-only association would be unusual in the current climate. In the US in particular, whites are well on the way to being just one more minority in a vibrant society.

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#33

Post by d-z-m »

> [...]I hate it more than I can say when I read books or listen to talks and performances by men who tell and ‘interpret’ women’s stories

This is of a piece with a disturbing trend in the world of fiction where writing about anything that "you aren't" is considered inauthentic, or wrong.

If I read a story about a man written by a woman that resonates with me deeply, it's just as real and true as it would be if a man had written it. Maybe even a little more so.

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#34

Post by wwwwwwwwwww »

BlackFly wrote: post #6
joshhansen wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"actually it is better if women lead this study at this current time" This is such an indictment of our society. I still believe that the proper response to women's mistreatment in the past and present is to stop mistreating women, not to start mistreating men. Constraining men from discussing things of interest and value to them, basically because they're not women and don't have the societal "indulgence" of being f…

Well, I don't think it is an indictment so much as the typical indication of how we humans swing to extremes. I find it somewhat lamentable (although perhaps more enviable) how gay men are able to more openly discuss with one another what it means to be a man (because the biggest thing they need to grapple with is this gender norm that to "be a man" means having sex with women), but even they risk charges of misogyny…

I think this just as big of a problem among women. The loudest voices talking about both women's issues and men's issues tend to be quite sexist and obnoxious. Feminism has a misandry problem just as much as the men's rights movement has a misogyny problem. In both cases, it deters non-hateful people from participating, and that contributes further to the problem.

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#35

Post by blueflow »

HelloNurse wrote: post #29
blueflow wrote: post #11

Keep in mind that masculinity and femininity are constructed - they only exist because some properties associated with each other. Because of its construction, its an opinion, not a fact. What one considers masculine or feminine is basically arbitrary and random and everyone is free to disagree. An evil spirit could claim that none of the mentioned archetypes is gender-specific at all and they would not be provable w…

Gender is an opinion, but it is a sufficiently coherent opinion across different people and different times that it can be studied and discussed from an almost objective historical and anthropological perspective; the "evil spirit" cannot claim that, for example, typical blacksmiths in stories are not male.

The word "typical" sort of turns it into a tautology. Whatever your idea of gender is decides which blacksmith is typical and which isn't.

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#36

Post by d-z-m »

hk__2 wrote: post #28
scotty79 wrote: post #20

Why are people so fixated on gender? We all mostly want the same things, feel the same things and do the same things, both good and bad. Individual variety overwhelms slight difference in averages between the groups. When it comes to anything except children, "I'm a man" is no more meaningful than "I'm a Libra". Objectively meaningless, subjectively can screw you up but only if you believe in zodiac.

> We all mostly want the same things, feel the same things and do the same things, both good and bad The irony is that it’s clear from this affirmation that you are a man, because any woman knows how false this is. This is the same for pretty much any situation where some group dominates another: the dominants think everything is fine because they don’t experience any discrimination and don’t understand why the domin…

> because any woman knows how false this is.

In what way is the statement you quoted false?

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#37

Post by rsynnott »

DarkNova6 wrote: post #22
rsynnott wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends what you mean by consistent. You don't have to go back too far before things get, well, different enough that they can be confusing to the modern observer. Obvious example: early 19th century dandies. These tend to get read today as kind of effeminate, unmasculine, because that's kind of the _modern_ view of a man who's obsessed with fashion, grooming, etc (or, at least, it was the late 20th century view; thi…

To be fair I should have been more precise. I was implicitly referring to myths, legends and epics which are way older than just 2 or 3 hundred years. Particularly the Epic of Gilgamesh is a fascinating view into a society that could not be further away from modern times and yet is perfectly recognizable. Perhaps it is when humanity is the most stripped down and naked that fundamental motives become most clear.

> I was implicitly referring to myths, legends and epics which are way older than just 2 or 3 hundred years

I think this only works, if at all, if you stick to surface detail. Maybe not even then. Zeus, say, was quite keen on shagging men (and women). This would definitely have been coded as very non-masculine, say, 50 years ago, and still is today, though to a lesser extent, but the Greeks wouldn't have seen it that way.

Also, there's a bit of a filter here. To some extent, the ancient stories that you're likely to be exposed to are the ones which are most comprehensible to a modern reader; if a story requires a deep understanding of an alien society to make sense to the reader, then it's not a _good_ story for a general audience, and you're unlikely to be exposed to it unless you go looking.

Even taking something as simple as this: https://lettersofnote.com/2016/07/22/what-do-you-take-me-for...

The world's oldest known letter of complaint. On the surface, it's kind of relatable, but if you read it in full, there are some pretty weird details which don't make that much sense without further context.

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#38

Post by hackable_sand »

DarkNova6 wrote: post #13
blueflow wrote: post #11

Keep in mind that masculinity and femininity are constructed - they only exist because some properties associated with each other. Because of its construction, its an opinion, not a fact. What one considers masculine or feminine is basically arbitrary and random and everyone is free to disagree. An evil spirit could claim that none of the mentioned archetypes is gender-specific at all and they would not be provable w…

How could it be a construct of our modern times if their themes are consistent throughout history of humankind? Delving into mythology and legends which explore the nature of our kind, the description of male and female is fairly consistent. You might as well say "everything is subjective, there is no truth".

This is the basis of gender fluidity. An individual is free to balance both as they see fit.

From all of the ancient mystic philosophies that I've read, gender is always abstracted from sex and biology is unidentifiable at that abstraction. Regardless, those two gender identities exist as an inseparable harmony; a yin and yang.

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#39

Post by subjectsigma »

roenxi wrote: post #32
david-gpu wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect a "white's only" association wouldn't disgust many people, on the basis that we can have black or girl-only associations and they are fine. It would still be racist, obviously Well, it would disgust me . I have so-called mixed-heritage children and I dread the day when I have to explain to them that they can't join this or that activity with their friends because they have the wrong skin color or the wron…

As long as you are consistent and are disgusted by all race based organisations equally then cool. But, realistically, there are race based associations. Quite a lot of them. You're going to have to tolerate them - although I agree they are counterproductive. And I don't see why a white-only association would be unusual in the current climate. In the US in particular, whites are well on the way to being just one more…

> And I don't see why a white-only association would be unusual in the current climate.

Are you white? I am, and I don’t think any white person would claim this. At least where I live and work, we get reminded weekly how much a small contingent of ultra-progressives hate us.

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#40

Post by [deleted] »

hackable_sand wrote: post #38
DarkNova6 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could it be a construct of our modern times if their themes are consistent throughout history of humankind? Delving into mythology and legends which explore the nature of our kind, the description of male and female is fairly consistent. You might as well say "everything is subjective, there is no truth".

This is the basis of gender fluidity. An individual is free to balance both as they see fit. From all of the ancient mystic philosophies that I've read, gender is always abstracted from sex and biology is unidentifiable at that abstraction. Regardless, those two gender identities exist as an inseparable harmony; a yin and yang.

[deleted]
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