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All the oxygen trapped in a bubble

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Re: All the oxygen trapped in a bubble

#31
post #24

The pieces of this argument fit together very neatly, but the problem is that they don't correspond to reality. E.g. the cloud about increased VC fundraising. In reality VCs are having a hard time fundraising: http://nvcaccess.nvca.org/index.php/topics/research-and-tren... Thus it also isn't true that the cause of higher valuations is that VCs have more money. Valuations are certainly higher, but I think the reason i…

Where is the money that's driving increased developer/designer demand coming from?

Re: All the oxygen trapped in a bubble

#32

It's a shame that all of that talent is working on things the author doesn't think are worthwhile. I mean, everyone should work on what everyone can agree on is worth their time, right? Yet, I don't think everybody can really agree on what is worthwhile for a person's time. I can point at people working on things like Linux and Khan Academy and say "Their efforts are worthwhile!" but then Microsoft and that one guy,…

I appreciate your relativistic stance, but there's a part of me that wonders if, as an example, Instagram provided a billion dollars worth of additional photo sharing value over what already existed on Facebook. That is, photo sharing does have value to people who want to stay connected and have shared experiences via the internet, but I don't think that Instagram improved that to the tune of a billion dollars.

I personally don't think Instagram is worth a billion dollars.

But the general consensus is that when Zuck saw those numbers and thought of the upcoming IPO, he saw buying Instagram a very good defensive move that would solidify his company's position in the photo sharing marketplace.

Beating the same Nietzche-esqe drum, Zuck valued buying out the competition to be worth a billion.

Re: All the oxygen trapped in a bubble

#33
I'm just a working developer. I'm not looking to start a business of my own any time soon. I'll say one thing: I don't work for companies that cut paychecks out of rapidly dwindling venture capital funds and I don't work for large corporations that hire and fire teams like chattel. If the bubble burst tomorrow, it wouldn't affect my life in any meaningful way. I'd probably get fewer recruiters bugging me, which would be nice for a change.

Re: All the oxygen trapped in a bubble

#34

It's a shame that all of that talent is working on things the author doesn't think are worthwhile. I mean, everyone should work on what everyone can agree on is worth their time, right? Yet, I don't think everybody can really agree on what is worthwhile for a person's time. I can point at people working on things like Linux and Khan Academy and say "Their efforts are worthwhile!" but then Microsoft and that one guy,…

I don't think he is arguing that he doesn't like the problems that are being solved. He does mention that he sees the same problems being solved over and over again for more and more money, photo sharing being a timely example. I don't know if he's right; in general I don't have a solid grasp on how to value companies that aren't making any money.

Assertion: if somebody comes along and solves a problem that was previously thought solved, then they are solving a new problem.

Facebook solved the "How do I share photo's online?" problem. Instagram solved the new problem of "How do I take pictures to put onto Facebook?" problem.

And I have no idea how to value companies that aren't making money. Way beyond me.

Re: All the oxygen trapped in a bubble

#35
I've called the kneejerk "bubble" reactions "boring" [1] and I stand by that. That doesn't mean I disagree (or agree for that matter). It just means that banal perjoratives with nothing to back them up are boring.

To call this a bubble, one must first describe what one means by a bubble. A bubble in my mind is a period of rapid growth in valuations followed by a massive devaluation on such a scale that it hinders investment and innovation.

The subprime collapse was a bubble. Many people were left underwater on their mortgages. Building in many places stopped for years. This has a knock-on effect on jobs, related industries and so on. That's a bubble.

The dotcom collapse was also a bubble. But there are several differences this time around:

1. Startup costs now, for most Internet startups, are essentially zero. 10+ years ago you had to spend $5-10M to do anything (once you paid for Sun servers, Oracle licenses and so on);

2. Lax listing requirements, particularly on the NASDAQ, helped perpetuate fraud;

3. There was no experience to draw on (from living memory at least). Now we hopefully know a little better;

4. Sarbanes-Oxley, clusterfuck that it is, has at least kept the number of Internet companies IPOing relatively low. This has some negative consequences too but it means that retail investors and mutual funds have largely been excluded from the startup scene, which honestly is a Good Thing [tm]; and

5. Now, as opposed to then, there are real businesses operating in the tech space who are generating profits on a scale not seen in probably a century or more. Apple, for example, is worth >$500B market cap now and by some estimates that's still cheap given their profits.

10+ years ago investment dried up, capital dried up and legitimate businesses couldn't start or continue to operate, which had a domino effect.

What happens if next month Facebook goes from $100B valuation to $10B? Honestly, not a lot. Late stage investors will lose their shirts. That's fine. VC is a high-risk business. Individuals who participate in the IPO will lose a lot of money. That's not ideal but so be it.

But the important thing to ask is: what will happen to the system as a whole? Startups will still start. When you can build a mobile app and business for $50k the capital markets are basically irrelevant to you. Apple, Google, Microsoft and others will remain. Life will go on.

The low cost of startups is itself a barrier to institutional investment (by pension funds and the like) because the amounts are too small. Again, that's a Good Thing [tm].

What's really happening here is a lot of money is changing hands between VCs and endowment funds and honestly in relative terms it's not that much money.

Speaking to some examples (recent and otherwise):

- Instagram: I think this purchase was overvalued but, if anything, it demonstrates just what a high-risk investment Facebook is if a company can go from nothing to being an existential threat in 2 years. I honestly believe Facebook was taking them out of the market with this buy;

- Pinterest: through affiliate and advertising revenue I see potential for this company to be a huge business with massive ability to drive traffic to commerce sites. Make no mistake, this is a real business. It's not without risk but the potential is huge;

- Youtube: I bring this one up because it went, in 18 months, from being nothing to being bought by Google for >$1.5B (IIRC). Some said now it was overpaying. Honestly, in hindsight I think that price may well have been a massive bargain.

Just because you don't see potential doesn't mean there isn't any. Just because something ends up failing doesn't mean the risk wasn't worth taking.

The reason the kneejerk bubble accusations annoy me is that they come from the sort of people who seem so averse to risk that they neve take any. That is, until the very peak of the bubble (when they finally convince themselves this can go on forever).

Please, I beg of you, if you're going to jump and down and yell "bubble" at least add something to the conversation or back it up with something. A >$1B valuation on a funding round doesn't actually mean anything.

Disclaimer: I work for Google.

EDIT: I forgot to address a couple of points.

Firstly, I too find it depressing what a lot of us are working on [2] [3]. The fact that SpaceX can revolutionize launch costs for less money than was spent on Instagram is sobering and depressing.

Secondly, it is incredibly hard to hire good engineers. I don't see this as evidence of a bubble. I see this as evidence that:

a) (good) engineering is hard;

b) when other costs (bandwidth, servers, software) go to zero, demand for manpower will go up because businesses that once weren't possible or viable will become so; and

c) in a world where anyone can be a founder, it makes no sense to stick to 90s era equity arrangements. To be honest, being an early employee is a lottery ticket and, generally speaking, a shitty deal. Last cofounder = 25-50%. First employee = 1-2%. If good talent is better off working on their own startup you shouldn't be surprised that they do.

[1]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3985393

[2]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3876897

[3]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKmQW_Nkfk8

Re: All the oxygen trapped in a bubble

#36
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you can just concentrate on building a sustainable business, and worry about more urgent things that will affect your business, rather than the macro-trends.

Agree or not, that's what DHH is saying here. It's harder for sustainable businesses to hire talent, when talent is getting paid more at places with enormous valuations. This of course falls down if the large valuation and the large pay are justified by things like large revenues, or value to those with large revenues.

Sometimes I just wonder: what "talent" are you guys talking about?

It's almost as if there exist a group of fresh-grads who just completed their CS degree but can magically write a better compression engine or a revolutionary protocol that is better than TCP.

Re: All the oxygen trapped in a bubble

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It's a shame that all of that talent is working on things the author doesn't think are worthwhile." That's an unfair statement - I think more importantly the bubble is making people work on things that they themselves do not believe are worthwhile. You have more and more people entering the market working on things because they think it will flip for ${MAX_INT}, not working on products they genuinely believe peopl…

That can all be brought back to values though. If you value ${MAX_INT} in your bank account, then working on whatever will get you there is worthwhile to you. Regarding that very last fragment, if you get that money, then somebody is willing to pay for it; not in the "customer-producer" form of exchange but the "buy you out" form.

That can only be sustained so long, the company buying you has to get money from somewhere.

Re: All the oxygen trapped in a bubble

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he is arguing that he doesn't like the problems that are being solved. He does mention that he sees the same problems being solved over and over again for more and more money, photo sharing being a timely example. I don't know if he's right; in general I don't have a solid grasp on how to value companies that aren't making any money.

Assertion: if somebody comes along and solves a problem that was previously thought solved, then they are solving a new problem. Facebook solved the "How do I share photo's online?" problem. Instagram solved the new problem of "How do I take pictures to put onto Facebook?" problem. And I have no idea how to value companies that aren't making money. Way beyond me.

I understand, and maybe agree with, your assertion. But, you could also say that this is part of the problem. Does even more refinement, and even better solution to the problem of how to share the trivia of your life with the same few people, really improve the "economic base"? I have no idea. But I think it's a valid question.

Re: All the oxygen trapped in a bubble

#40
post #12

> All those smart and talented heads, and all those benjamins, didn’t progress the economic base in a way we’re going to care about tomorrow. He's talking of Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest, etc. and doesn't have the courage to name then. Is this envy? That DHH's products haven't got this far? Or just naive? Because he should know the typical deal terms of a Pinterest and that valuations and raising are blown up for t…

He is considered a demi-god to a whole generation of programmers and drives a custom pagani zonda, I doubt he is that envious.
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