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Why Scientists Are Calling for the Moon to Be Better Protected from Development

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Why Scientists Are Calling for the Moon to Be Better Protected from Development

#31

Post by palata »

d_burfoot wrote: post #16

There was a similar theme in Kim Stanley Robinson's book Red Mars - a lot of the initial crew of colonists actually wanted to preserve the planet in its pristine state. I thought this was completely crazy. There are no ecosystems to protect, no endangered species, no green living things. Moving development from Earth into space should count as an overwhelming win for the environment.

> “We need to preserve the far side for exciting science that includes measuring magnetic fields associated with potentially habitable exoplanets and uncovering the mysteries of the unexplored Dark Ages of the early universe—using low radio frequency observations”

Does that sound completely crazy? Like... the fact that they want to study it before private companies destroy it for their own benefit?

> Moving development from Earth into space should count as an overwhelming win for the environment.

I don't think this is obvious at all. Actually I don't believe it at all. First because enabling development in space will not at all make us reduce it on Earth. Why would it? If we can make money in space and on Earth, it's more money than just on Earth. It's even completely possible that having development in space will make it even worse for the environment on Earth.

Re: Why Scientists Are Calling for the Moon to Be Better Protected from Development

#32

Post by JohnMakin »

I understand study of the early universe has potentially important ramifications in physics - but scanning exoplanets for evidence of life seems pointless to me. Say we found life within 10 LY of our solar system. What would we even do with this information?

Re: Why Scientists Are Calling for the Moon to Be Better Protected from Development

#33

Post by cassianoleal »

rufus_foreman wrote: post #25
erellsworth wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: What is the difference between telling people what they can and can't do on the moon vs telling people what they can and can't do on vacant land here on earth? If I go out to some remote area in the United States and start building houses, I'll almost certainly get into legal trouble, especially if I don't have any permits and definitely if I don't own the land. Who gets to own the moon? Is it just…

>> Who gets to own the moon? Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin were the first to the moon and they planted the US flag on it in 1969, so that technically made it US territory. But then when they took off in the lander, the blast blew the flag over. I don't know if that affected the legal status or not.

> they planted the US flag on it in 1969, so that technically made it US territory

Can you point me to which international law that backs this?

Re: Why Scientists Are Calling for the Moon to Be Better Protected from Development

#34

Post by edgyquant »

KyleBerezin wrote: post #5
basisword wrote: post #2

While I understand their concerns, it seems a bit crazy to think you have any right to tell people what to do or not do on the moon.

I too am a libertarian moon-man.

It’s not really a libertarian thing. Society has to balance more than just the wants or concerns of scientists and they have no more right than anyone else to dictate what we do with the moon.

Re: Why Scientists Are Calling for the Moon to Be Better Protected from Development

#35

Post by londons_explore »

jfengel wrote: post #21

I personally don't much care what we develop on the moon. It's a rock. I'm more concerned with Mars. Mars potentially had life, once. There's even a vague chance that it might still, somehow. Evidence for either would be extremely precarious. Unlike the Moon, every bit of waste vented into the atmosphere is going to be carried around the entire planet by the wind, tainting everything. If it were up to me, I'd declare…

I would argue that there is very little value to us of a few bacterial cells who might exist down some cracks on mars.

There will never be a time we have fully searched for life there, and even if there was something there to find, I think we could probably identify it even with contamination from us.

Re: Why Scientists Are Calling for the Moon to Be Better Protected from Development

#36

Post by Aerroon »

dguest wrote: post #11
acimim_ha wrote: post #4

> locations on the moon where conditions are ideal for the study of the early universe. Doesn't get me particularly excited personally. Scientists should be aware other people have different interests. I want a futurama lunapark. In the end, government is going to decide. After some war/conflicts. Just like on Earth.

I want a lunapark too. Until then I'm just another stupid scientist. But I'm aware that other people have different interests. I think the people who are calling for areas to be preserved are aware too, which is why they are trying to start a dialogue.

But the dialogue is really this:

>I want to study X and to do that I need Y. And you're going to give it to me because it might help our scientific understanding. Probably. Maybe.

Science overall is useful, but whether any individual part of it is useful is a lot more questionable. What gets studied is about what a (willful) scientist wants to study.

I suspect that people setting up something economically useful on the moon would actually end up being more valuable for science. It would mean that there will be economical access to the moon. If it's government-funded and science-led, then the whole thing might end on some political whim.

Re: Why Scientists Are Calling for the Moon to Be Better Protected from Development

#37

Post by tw04 »

Am4TIfIsER0ppos wrote: post #17
tw04 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>While I understand their concerns, it seems a bit crazy to think you have any right to tell people what to do or not do on the moon. Have you stopped to think what happens to the earth if the moon were just outright gone? Because that's ultimately what the debate is about. If anything valuable is found there, you can be assured someone will strip mine it until every last piece of value is removed, and the non-valuab…

If someone can mine the entire moon away I say let them. What a fantastical technical achievement that would be

"If someone can cut down the entire Amazon Rainforest, I say let them. What a fantastical technical achievement."

Whether you're trolling or not, what a horrible take unless you're hoping the human race just wipes itself out. With our current rate of technological progress, someone having the ability to mine the moon to nothing is at most 500 years away, maybe sooner if they find something under the surface that makes it financially attractive.

Re: Why Scientists Are Calling for the Moon to Be Better Protected from Development

#38

Post by palata »

basisword wrote: post #2

While I understand their concerns, it seems a bit crazy to think you have any right to tell people what to do or not do on the moon.

I understand: "Those people have valid reasons to tell people what not to do on the Moon, but I find it crazy that they could think there are valid reasons to tell people what not to do on the Moon".

Is that what you are saying?

Re: Why Scientists Are Calling for the Moon to Be Better Protected from Development

#39

Post by politician »

londons_explore wrote: post #35
jfengel wrote: post #21

I personally don't much care what we develop on the moon. It's a rock. I'm more concerned with Mars. Mars potentially had life, once. There's even a vague chance that it might still, somehow. Evidence for either would be extremely precarious. Unlike the Moon, every bit of waste vented into the atmosphere is going to be carried around the entire planet by the wind, tainting everything. If it were up to me, I'd declare…

I would argue that there is very little value to us of a few bacterial cells who might exist down some cracks on mars. There will never be a time we have fully searched for life there, and even if there was something there to find, I think we could probably identify it even with contamination from us.

Not to mention that periodic mass transfers between planets have already contaminated it; the OP is mistaken that Mars is somehow a pristine environment.

Re: Why Scientists Are Calling for the Moon to Be Better Protected from Development

#40

Post by KyleBerezin »

edgyquant wrote: post #34
KyleBerezin wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too am a libertarian moon-man.

It’s not really a libertarian thing. Society has to balance more than just the wants or concerns of scientists and they have no more right than anyone else to dictate what we do with the moon.

Its a joke. It sounds like a normal libertarian argument, but on the moon. If you want a more serious answer though, we have multiple treaties and moratoriums on what is, and is not allowed in space and on the moon. They were agreed upon because we have mutual interests, and want to preserve humanities future of spaceflight and research.

- https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/int...

- https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/int....

- https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/int...

- https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/int...

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