Live data from Hacker News

Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

gnu.org

31–40 of 61 posts

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#31
post #30

Related question: wouldn't FOSS ruin competitive online play, by making it impossible for game companies to prevent cheating?

It is reasonable and possible to program these games in such a way that the client is assumed to be malicious, but this is not a common practice. Preventing cheating would be possible in the general case. For most existing games, though, a modified client already enables the user to cheat. It is just more difficult to create it without the source.

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#32
post #14

"My guess is that the direct good effect will be bigger than the direct harm." Did rms just admit that proprietary software can theoretically have benefits? What's this world coming to lol

That surprised me as well, I'm sure I've heard him say before that nonfree software is 100% unethical even on a free platform. Perhaps he realises that having steam + valve games would be a huge net win for desktop linux use. Even if you had mainly nonfree software , in theory desktop linux would still be quite a free system in the sense that there would be a level playing field amongst software devs.

Even the most zealous are rarely devoid of all nuance.

Note he actually says "Nonfree games (like other nonfree programs) are unethical". That one believes an act is unethical is different from believing it will have a net negative effect vs not performing the act, and there's often a lot of nuance to be had when something is ethically questionable.

Consider the periodically-raised question of taking control of a botnet in order to shut it down. Opinions on this range from "totally ethical" to "totally unethical", even as much of the "totally unethical" crowd would probably admit that shutting down the botnet is a net good vs not doing so.

Sometimes, "X is unethical" doesn't mean "no good will come of X", it means "we need a third option". RMS believes non-free software is unethical, almost surely believes the existence of software in general is a net good, and that Free Software is the "third option".

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#33
post #29
post #14

"My guess is that the direct good effect will be bigger than the direct harm." Did rms just admit that proprietary software can theoretically have benefits? What's this world coming to lol

Programmers have to eat, and free software needs a supporting paradigm to be sustainable. With Firefox it's the search engine, with Apache it's support, only smaller projects can be made from pure passion. Any large company porting software to a platform will be good, as more people (and thus support) will come to Linux. >Nonfree games (like other nonfree programs) are unethical because they deny freedom to their use…

Just because you are not doing something directly and obviously "evil" like hitting a baby does not mean something cannot be unethical.

As more of our world is software and we rely on it to do things like store our personal information and trust it to respect our privacy etc, how is the availability and ability to understand and inspect that software not a potentially very ethical issue?

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#34
post #29
post #14

"My guess is that the direct good effect will be bigger than the direct harm." Did rms just admit that proprietary software can theoretically have benefits? What's this world coming to lol

Programmers have to eat, and free software needs a supporting paradigm to be sustainable. With Firefox it's the search engine, with Apache it's support, only smaller projects can be made from pure passion. Any large company porting software to a platform will be good, as more people (and thus support) will come to Linux. >Nonfree games (like other nonfree programs) are unethical because they deny freedom to their use…

Well, I'm certainly grateful that his views are this strong, or else there wouldn't have been a free software movement for the open source movement to arise out of. If you think about it, the world as we know it would be completely different without Stallman. However, I'm not quite sure I agree with his belief that the existence of proprietary software licenses that tell you not to share with your neighbor create a double bind in which you either comply with the license and contribute to the destruction of social cohesion or you help your neighbor but incur psychosocial harm in the form of guilt that shouldn't be. :)

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#35
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That surprised me as well, I'm sure I've heard him say before that nonfree software is 100% unethical even on a free platform. Perhaps he realises that having steam + valve games would be a huge net win for desktop linux use. Even if you had mainly nonfree software , in theory desktop linux would still be quite a free system in the sense that there would be a level playing field amongst software devs.

Even the most zealous are rarely devoid of all nuance. Note he actually says "Nonfree games (like other nonfree programs) are unethical". That one believes an act is unethical is different from believing it will have a net negative effect vs not performing the act, and there's often a lot of nuance to be had when something is ethically questionable. Consider the periodically-raised question of taking control of a bot…

I don't think I've ever read an argument suggesting that shutting down a botnet (as long as that is all you do) would be unethical, more that it would technically be illegal.

I'm sure I've heard Stallman say in the past that software cannot possibly be in any way good unless it is free.

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#36

Why would I care? I understand the point of freedom for some software: say if tomorrow the whole nginx team decides to retire and I nginx is a critical part of my business, I have the option of taking over the maintenance. But games are not like that. Games are entertainment and presumably a short-lived one. I play, I get bored, I move on. The games are also a product of diverse teams: it's not just programmers, but…

Not sure why this got downvoted.

Games I think are a very different case to almost any other software and should be treated as such, of course that does not necessarily mean that they do not contain malicious features.

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#37
post #15
post #14

"My guess is that the direct good effect will be bigger than the direct harm." Did rms just admit that proprietary software can theoretically have benefits? What's this world coming to lol

RMS is pretty reasonable! He gets a bad rap, I think. It's like people watch his every move like, "Oh man, what's that craaaazzyyy old man going to do next?" Of course, he's actually right 4 times out of 5. I thought the point he made in this article was a balanced one.

I agree that he was pretty reasonable in the case of this article, but he is a bit crazy by most people's standards. A friend of mine has worked for the FSF and told me that Stallman won't even use the World Wide Web! Anything he needs looked up he has coworkers do for him because they're foolish enough to trust that nonfree web sites aren't malicious.

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#38

Why would I care? I understand the point of freedom for some software: say if tomorrow the whole nginx team decides to retire and I nginx is a critical part of my business, I have the option of taking over the maintenance. But games are not like that. Games are entertainment and presumably a short-lived one. I play, I get bored, I move on. The games are also a product of diverse teams: it's not just programmers, but…

> Do you really want Hemingway's texts be licensed under GFDL so you could improve upon them?

We create copyright laws because we want value what is made possible by it.

Games are entertainment.

Games are culture.

I want Hemingway's texts to be available to blind people, to to work on todays e-readers, and not be lost forever because they can't be updated to current technology.

There are specific exemptions in US copyright law to allow brail versions and copyright holders can't stop them being made available.

I want all copyright software source to be registered with the Library of Congress, because I value software.

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#39
post #37
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RMS is pretty reasonable! He gets a bad rap, I think. It's like people watch his every move like, "Oh man, what's that craaaazzyyy old man going to do next?" Of course, he's actually right 4 times out of 5. I thought the point he made in this article was a balanced one.

I agree that he was pretty reasonable in the case of this article, but he is a bit crazy by most people's standards. A friend of mine has worked for the FSF and told me that Stallman won't even use the World Wide Web! Anything he needs looked up he has coworkers do for him because they're foolish enough to trust that nonfree web sites aren't malicious.

It's not strictly true that he only has other people do it for him:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.os.openbsd.misc/134979

As far as the internet, though, as I told a friend long ago - Richard Stallman doesn't need the internet. The internet needs Richard Stallman.

Re: Nonfree DRM'd Games on GNU/Linux: Good or Bad?

#40
post #29
post #14

"My guess is that the direct good effect will be bigger than the direct harm." Did rms just admit that proprietary software can theoretically have benefits? What's this world coming to lol

Programmers have to eat, and free software needs a supporting paradigm to be sustainable. With Firefox it's the search engine, with Apache it's support, only smaller projects can be made from pure passion. Any large company porting software to a platform will be good, as more people (and thus support) will come to Linux. >Nonfree games (like other nonfree programs) are unethical because they deny freedom to their use…

I would agree that DRM that breaks basic functions of an OS is unethical. I believe that DRM that prevents a user from using or accessing something for which he or she has paid for, at any time in the future for any reason, is unethical and legally dubious.

The free or nonfreeness of a particular piece of software is as much of a moral question as the color of sand on a beach.

Post reply on HN