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How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

caseyhandmer.wordpress.com

31–40 of 63 posts

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#31
post #8
post #2

i have a crazy idea... how about... not focusing on ever increasing the size of ai models, so that we don't need to build all those power-hungry ai training datacenters? just a thought

It’s always interesting to see these ideas on a tech forum. Should we as humanity stop right here? Draw a line in the sand and not do anything new? Maybe we should move backwards, skipping the Industrial Revolution and go back to each individual growing their own food? This is a serious question. What do you propose? Because you are not able to pick and choose what humanity tries out, so shall we stop entirely?

> Should we as humanity stop right here? Draw a line in the sand and not do anything new?

Maybe someone with the knowledge of hindsight in a few generations will say that, yes, we should stop and draw a line in the sand.

We are still used to the idea that we can treat externalities to the systems we build as infinite and boundless, while it is getting increasingly clear that they are not. I am not saying we should stop working on LLMs. I just say we probably should factor in (that means: assign economic value to) downstream consequences of said high energy consumption if we don't wanna destroy our own habitats. And that then would probably lead to a world where LLMs are used for actually important problems instead of furthering the goals of the few who truly profit from surveillance-capitalism.

But hey, let's continue wasting a years worth of energy on training LLMs on cat pictures, they are cute after all.

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#32
post #8
post #2

i have a crazy idea... how about... not focusing on ever increasing the size of ai models, so that we don't need to build all those power-hungry ai training datacenters? just a thought

It’s always interesting to see these ideas on a tech forum. Should we as humanity stop right here? Draw a line in the sand and not do anything new? Maybe we should move backwards, skipping the Industrial Revolution and go back to each individual growing their own food? This is a serious question. What do you propose? Because you are not able to pick and choose what humanity tries out, so shall we stop entirely?

It's not just "progress" vs "no progress". Some technical innovations, like leaded gasoline, have had more of a negative impact than a positive. It's not a binary, and not all technology is without cost.

The argument against current AI progress isn't anti-technology, it's pointing out that these things can have a hugely negative impact that's mostly being shouted down or swept under the rug in the name of "progress". The climate crisis is pretty serious business, and the AI power consumption is making it worse, not better. The risk of huge amounts of unemployment are being mostly handwaved away as "yeah, that's not gonna happen, we always make jobs out of somewhere".

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#34
post #21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should invent solutions for problems that we have, instead of wildly trying to apply this tech to everything we can think of. We are skipping the benefit/cost considerations.

Is AI not a solution for our problems? I can imagine a declining population, a younger generation, that does not want to reproduce, neither working off the available work. We need a solution for that. So we need systems, that learns human knowledge, refines it, makes it better and takes over all of the work. And for programmers: is sitting not the new cig smoking and drinking alcohol for early death?

How does AI help in solving the issues you brought over in your post?

> a declining population, a younger generation, that does not want to reproduce, neither working off the available work. We need a solution for that.

And what do you reckon is the reason for that? "Kids these days are lazy and only want to have fun", or something to that extent? Or is that because the cost of living has skyrocketed, the future is uncertain and people are afraid of the planet becoming more and more inhospitable for humans in the following decades or even years?

Maybe people do not want to work despite the job availability because those jobs offer piss poor conditions and no security? If not for all these reasons, why would people act so differently than in the past?

Once you put your precious A"I" in the equation, what do you get out of it? Even less job security, more leverage for bad employers to threaten workers with the magic wand of "you'll get substituted", and arguably way shittier quality of products all around (cases in point: A"I" customer service that fails to be satisfactory in resolving customer issues or become a huge nuisance to deal with, or A"I" "art" in articles and blogs that' so easy to spot that you could arguably be better off with no illustrations at all).

> So we need systems, that learns human knowledge, refines it, makes it better and takes over all of the work. First off, who is "we"? And secondly, once it "takes over all of the work" (whatever that means), what are people going to do? Do you really think we'll get some utopian fantasy like UBI?

> And for programmers: is sitting not the new cig smoking and drinking alcohol for early death? How tf does that have anything to do with A"I" helping? If I use Copilot to "help" me out in programming I'll still have to sit, will I not?

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#35
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still haven’t seen a use case that will make AI adopted by the masses I think it’s still mostly hot air. It’s good for what it is for office jobs and higher education, but only for specific tasks and it has to be triple checked. Just yesterday at work I asked it for a Powershell script to upload a local file to S3 and it hallucinated a method. The whole script is like 10 lines. How could it mess that up, but meanwh…

Has AI not already been adopted by the masses?

Absolutely not. I’d wager that a slim majority of Americans have heard of chatGPT, much less have used it, and even fewer have done something useful/productive with it.

Here are stats from 6 months ago, I doubt it’s changed significantly since then:

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/28/most-amer...

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#36
post #8
post #2

i have a crazy idea... how about... not focusing on ever increasing the size of ai models, so that we don't need to build all those power-hungry ai training datacenters? just a thought

It’s always interesting to see these ideas on a tech forum. Should we as humanity stop right here? Draw a line in the sand and not do anything new? Maybe we should move backwards, skipping the Industrial Revolution and go back to each individual growing their own food? This is a serious question. What do you propose? Because you are not able to pick and choose what humanity tries out, so shall we stop entirely?

I think it is not very generous to interpret somebody suggesting that we try different things, as

> Because you are not able to pick and choose what humanity tries out, so shall we stop entirely?

I don’t see anything that dictatorial in their suggestion.

There’s clearly something wrong in the current LLM based ecosystem. They take gigawatt-hours to train and digest the entire corpus of the internet to produce a model that writes at, what, the level of an erudite college freshman?

> not focusing on ever increasing the size of ai models, so that we don't need to build all those power-hungry ai training datacenters?

I read the italic bit as not a command to stop, but a suggestion to come up with better algorithms. Which researchers are presumably working on. Hopefully chatGPT & friends don’t suck up all the oxygen.

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#37
post #11
post #5

This might be why Bill Gates is invested so heavily into TerraPower.

Bill Gates has a $1B short position on Tesla. I wouldn't use what Bill Gates is investing in as any indicator of what we should be doing.

Tesla has been on a steady [and IMHO rightful] decline since Jan 3, 2024.

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#38
post #8
post #2

i have a crazy idea... how about... not focusing on ever increasing the size of ai models, so that we don't need to build all those power-hungry ai training datacenters? just a thought

It’s always interesting to see these ideas on a tech forum. Should we as humanity stop right here? Draw a line in the sand and not do anything new? Maybe we should move backwards, skipping the Industrial Revolution and go back to each individual growing their own food? This is a serious question. What do you propose? Because you are not able to pick and choose what humanity tries out, so shall we stop entirely?

Yes, you can't save yourself rich.

I think these kinds of things will be solved by market forces.

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#39
post #21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should invent solutions for problems that we have, instead of wildly trying to apply this tech to everything we can think of. We are skipping the benefit/cost considerations.

Is AI not a solution for our problems? I can imagine a declining population, a younger generation, that does not want to reproduce, neither working off the available work. We need a solution for that. So we need systems, that learns human knowledge, refines it, makes it better and takes over all of the work. And for programmers: is sitting not the new cig smoking and drinking alcohol for early death?

> I can imagine a declining population, a younger generation, that does not want to reproduce, neither working off the available work.

Luckily the future does not depend on what you can or can't imagine. And no, even if that imagination were accurate, AI would not be the solution for any of those problems. We know the root causes, we know the effects, having a bunch of companies boil the oceans to have AI generate mediocre copy and uninspired illustrations does not help with anything other than making those companies richer and displacing even more workers and shutting down even more career paths.

Young people don't want to have kids or work because all the aspirational goals previous generations had have become unattainable for them, we're counting down the years until the climate catastrophe becomes impossible to ignore even in wealthier countries and there is literally nothing the masses can do because politicians across the world have shown a complete disregard for human life in the face of a global pandemic that had a death toll in the millions before we simply stopped counting.

> So we need systems, that learns human knowledge, refines it, makes it better and takes over all of the work.

And how would that benefit anyone but those who own those systems and charge for its use? How would that benefit the "younger generation"? To the contrary this would seem like it would do what automation always does: drive down wages and reduce workforces while harming workers' ability to bargain for better working conditions.

As tech workers we should take the time to understand that the "Luddites" were not actually opposed to technological advancement but to the consequences of it in a system that always rewards the business but not the worker for an increase in productivity. You don't need to withdraw into a cabin in the woods to realize that the way we have set up the systems that govern us technological progress will always only accelerate the wealth drain to the rich, never reverse it.

And that doesn't even get into how most AI startups are completely unsustainable (as growth-oriented startups tend to be) or how the proliferation of underpriced AI has contributed to the destruction of knowledge via search engine spam, "content generation" and social media bots.

If you want to create fully automated gay luxury space communism, be my guest, but you'll also need to work on the "communism" part if you want to make the "fully automated" part not result in the opposite direction.

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#40

Solar is no way close to being reliable, all weather and cheap source of energy that nuclear and fossil fuel can be, which are critical for the tech industry in general.

The actual workload in ML model training is totally deferrable. It ought to be very compatible with intermittent power, and actually great for the renewable grid. The two solutions for intermittence are: buy batteries or buy so many solar panels that you still get enough power even when they are operating at like 30% efficiency. A workload that will pay big bucks for any excess power you’ve got will provide the needed ROI for the latter solution.

Unfortunately the chips are all to expensive so everybody wants to run them full-out all the time.

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