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Why do people bother with open source?

bunkum.us

31–40 of 56 posts

Re: Why do people bother with open source?

#31
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're opposed to capitalism on some level. Though it's probably true that some are just social democrats that want heavy regulation of capitalism. Another possible alternative is being a market socialist (wanting an economy that's basically all worker owned co-ops).

> Another possible alternative is being a market socialist OK. I hadn't considered that option. I guess I'm interested to understand the middle ground between "centralized state ownership" and "no state but somehow it doesn't turn into hellscape of warlords and bandits". Does this model generally allow private property but exclude "the means of production" etc?

Socialists usually try to distinguish between "personal property" (things for your own household/lifestyle) and "private property" (the means of production, or sometimes extravagant wealth in general).

Re: Why do people bother with open source?

#32
Just look at all the companies that do open source. Google, Microsoft, Facebook, etc... They are all very obviously for profit, if they could sell and become richer, they would, but they still put out open source, on permissive licences no less. It is just that code cannot be leveraged as a competitive advantage, on the contrary, they tend to benefit if people use code they have control over. Why do you think Google insist on people using Chrome even though it is free and 99% open source?

And for hobbyists, most of their code is not worth selling, they are just writing stuff for their own needs and they don't want to spend the effort making a commercial product. So, open source it goes. And if it becomes successful one day, it may still be worth it and you may gain contribution and fame, or maybe not, but you wouldn't have gained anything by keeping that code to yourself either.

Some do it for pure generosity, but it is, I think, a minority. Most either don't care, or it is part of a business plan. Being able to use GPL code can also be a motivation.

Re: Why do people bother with open source?

#33
post #24
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One reason why employers looking at open source contributions would be pernicious is that it biases them towards hiring people who have no life outside of writing code. That perpetuates a prevalent culture in the industry where people can't just write code for a living and do something else with the rest of their time. People should be able to have other interests besides code and still have a livelihood.

Conversely, I should be able to spend some time doing something other than working for the man or building something that has to be directly monetized. Contributing to open source projects, even in minor ways, provides some way for me to build a portfolio outside of the constraints of a 9 to 5.

I'd agree with that as well. Contributing to open source on your own time should be a choice not an expectation. It shouldn't be something that people do solely for the sake of advancing their career.

Re: Why do people bother with open source?

#34
post #2

I don’t see free software as anti-capitalist. When the FSF got started they sold tapes of free software, prior to that Stallman did that himself to make money. The FSF kept doing it until it was impractical but a good way for companies to make a donation and receive something practical in return. The tapes also came with printed manuals and tshirts.

Not arguing on whether free software is or not anti-capitalist, but want to point out that the act of monetizing goods and services isn't incompatible with anti-capitalism.

I hate people who orthogonalize monetization and open-source. Getting customers to cough up cash has always about knowing something they don't, a leverage you give up by releasing source code.

Re: Why do people bother with open source?

#35

> The types of desires that motivate open-source developers are the same as those of creative people in other fields, including fields where the norms are to charge for your work and to not license it permissively. If programmers could somehow satisfy these desires without giving away their work for free, I believe most of the open-source developers would not be open-source developers. It is a means to an end. This s…

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. The formal licences of FOSS came not a moment too soon - many open source developers still don't understand them or the copyright law they interact with, but use them primarily out of habit and custom. A much smaller subset in the open source community do understand them, and continue to make minor variations to keep up with changing times (such as accounting for the growing risk to FOSS from software patents).

Artists that I've spoken to (and I've spoken to many) don't tend to understand copyright either. The more naïve ones believe that copyright will protect them from plagiarism; of course it's not that simple in practice. Yet, the cultural norms among artists today go back centuries before computers existed, and before modern copyright laws too. That seems to make it much harder for 'open culture' licences like Creative Commons to get a foothold, although online sites like Flickr have certainly contributed to collecting a sizeable corpus of freely-licenced art.

If the concept of Free Software had been conceived after the widespread use of the World Wide Web rather than before it, I don't think that even the comparative openness of the Web would have been enough to make FOSS catch on.

To me, that begs the question: does FOSS actually need to exist? After all, art and music continues to survive and thrive without free licensing? But when I ponder that question, I'm glad FOSS does exist. We programmers don't, by and large, have to cope with record labels and licensing agencies taking successively larger cuts from the sale of our work, and those who program professionally tend to be compensated considerably more generously than our counterparts in the creative arts.

Most importantly: we FOSS developers are able to share our own work and take advantage of others' with complete certainty and legality. No 'grey areas' about copying when the original author or artist goes AWOL (it's actually not a grey area; it's simply prohibited). No 'non-commercial use only' causing legal headaches for non-profit and charitable ventures. No Digital Rights Management - I don't need to explain that relief here!

So all in all, I get what the blog post's author is trying to say, but I think he's just taking the joy of FOSS for granted. Programming would be a much more competitive, less friendly world if it were exclusively proprietary and commercial, and would be exploited more - not less - if it were as ad-hoc and improvised an industry as in the creative arts.

Re: Why do people bother with open source?

#36
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't necessarily say that it isn't anti-capitalist. Free software is perfectly compatible with a free market but the ethos of free software is pretty anti capitalist.

Tangent time. I genuinely don't understand what people generally mean when they use the phrase "anti-capitalist". I doubt most are Tankies or full-on Utopian Anarchists. I suspect a fair few mean "I want a mixed economy that's (a lot) fairer than the one we've got now" (which is probably my position). But outside of these three positions - what do people mean?

In the strict definition, capitalism refers to a system that is predominantly driven by ownership of private property. Wikipedia and basically every dictionary should echo this definition.

Now the other types of property are:

- Personal property: The definitions differ somewhat. In capitalist legal systems it refers to moveable or non-real property as it is more or less subsumed by private property but in general political/economic theory it refers to your personal things not used for industry. Things like your toiletries and the things the average person keeps in their house. i.e. consumer products and the like. To a lesser extent things like cars or houses. But notably not things like equipment for machining, farming, metalworking, etc.

- Public property: Things owned communally or by the government with explicit dedication to use by the public.

- Common property or collective property: Things owned by the collective that uses them. i.e. The factory and the machines being collectively owned by the workers who work the factory.

And out of the different types of properties the question is who holds which rights. The three types of rights are usus (use), fructus (derive profit/production), and abusus (to abuse, take away, damage, or destroy). In personal and private property the owner holds all three rights and the ability to provide those rights to others (however for personal property the fructus rights are pretty limited given the nature of the items). In the other types of property generally abusus rights are held either by the state or only granted by collective decision making. And some may also limit fructus rights as well.

Types of property that permit usus and fructus are called usufructs. These are things that exist publicly or collectively that you may freely use and derive profit from as long as you don't abuse them and if you damage them you repair/replace them.

So anti-capitalists dislike private property as the dominant form of ownership and instead want to place limits on how much private property any one source of capital (i.e. a capitalist) can hold.

On the less extreme end this means strong anti-trust protections and enforcing worker ownership (often via a union and voting stocks) for orgs larger than a certain size.

On the more extreme end is eliminating private property all together and requiring that any equipment that is solely intended for it's fructus rights to be considered public, common, or collective property.

And you'll note here that the market isn't mentioned at all. Many types of anti-capitalist systems are pro-regulated market or even in many cases pro-free-market.

--

Also just a side note but at least when discussing leftist ideas, utopian actually refers to a specific type of pre-marx socialism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism

Re: Why do people bother with open source?

#37
As an open source creator and contributor, something about this author's post bugs me.

Maybe it is his condescending words "why do people bother...", or that we are "working for free" with the implication being that we're suckers for doing it.

I think it bugs me because the author seems to disdain open source contributors. But why?

Some people just have a zero-sum mentality.

If it is your belief that the only way you can benefit is by taking something from someone else, then yeah, open source doesn't make sense.

Re: Why do people bother with open source?

#38
post #2

I don’t see free software as anti-capitalist. When the FSF got started they sold tapes of free software, prior to that Stallman did that himself to make money. The FSF kept doing it until it was impractical but a good way for companies to make a donation and receive something practical in return. The tapes also came with printed manuals and tshirts.

I hate the old timers who always cite GNU's cover-my-costs tape distribution, as if subsistence manifests a profit motive. The FSF hawks merch, yes, but it was never about making money so much as spreading a wrong-headed gospel.

Re: Why do people bother with open source?

#39

Open source is not "anti-capitalist" nor contradictory to capitalism. Indeed, it reflects people freely choosing how they want to allocate their resources on their own terms. There are few things more capitalist than that. It does represent competition to people who would rather not compete if they can avoid it. Similarly, I am skeptical that experienced software engineers see open source contributions as being a tac…

"Open source.... represent[s] competition to people who would rather not compete if they can avoid it."

I love it! One for the book of quotations.

Re: Why do people bother with open source?

#40
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't necessarily say that it isn't anti-capitalist. Free software is perfectly compatible with a free market but the ethos of free software is pretty anti capitalist.

Stallman and friends were always very clear that they love money. Even back in the 90's he was saying that selling Free software and making lots of money is one of the most ethical things you could do. That doesn't mean anyone actually could. I think you're all using the wrong mental framework to think about these things. Just because the Free software movement has used similar strategies to another famous group of h…

> Stallman and friends were always very clear that they love money. Even back in the 90's he was saying that selling Free software and making lots of money is one of the most ethical things you could do.

I mean I'm a socialist and I agree. If you have the ability to sell your software you 100% should and you should reap the rewards for the labor you put in. Point being that just because someone is pro-market doesn't mean they aren't also anti-capitalist.

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